Tram death

[Nick29]

Unfortunately accidents with trams in those days was not an uncommon event, because the roads in London were very busy, even then.  If you Google 'tram accident', you'll find that tram accidents are still not at all uncommon in UK cities today.  I wish you luck with your quest, but it may ultimately involve the purchase of several certificates, until you find the right man. 

[dianat]

Thank you Nick.  It happened, I now know between 1884 and 1891, so seven years is easier to search than ten years, hopefully.

Good luck to you for your family history search, also.
Best wishes
Diana - Australia

[Sandymc47]

Hi Diana
You asked what a General Dealer was - if you look at James Warner in the 1871 census (I am sure its your James) It states he was a Newsagent.
James Warner aged 27 born Hackney, wife Eliza aged 24 born Shoreditch
son James aged 2 born Shoreditch. At Aske Terrace, Shoreditch.
You dont mention what his wifes name was - oops just seen you mentioned it was Eliza.  I will have a look on some more sites later today but I am going out at the moment so dont have any more time to help now. Did look into a tram crash in Manchester the other month and I am sure there is a list or site which mentions deaths on trams but will have to research that again.
regards
Sandymc

[Valda]

Hi

Though James is not with the family on the 1891 and 1901 censuses Eliza clearly gives her status as married on both censuses. Was she still alive in 1911? If so what status did she give on that census?
The last child to be born with Eliza on these censuses is William born circa 1884/1885. Does his birth certificate give any further information about James - his occupation, whether the birth was posthumous?
Have you tracked the children through their marriages, particularly the older children? Do they on their marriages state their father was deceased (this doesn't always appear on marriage certificates whether the father was deceased or not).
Eliza junior married in 1897 and stated her father was a commercial traveller.
Charles married in 1905 and stated his father was a commercial agent
Phoebe married in 1907 and stated her father was a traveller. She also named him as James John Warner which I think was her brother's name? The word deceased does not appear on any of these siblings marriages.
The occupation of commercial traveller would certainly explain James' absences from the censuses with his family, but not necessarily where he might be on those censuses.

Other than a 'family story' have you any evidence James was killed between 1881 and 1891? If others have searched and there is no death registration in the area, then there is an absence of proof that a death actually occurred. If however James left his family between these dates for whatever reason, younger members of the family could have been brought up with a story that explained his absence since the real reason was not something older members of the family wished discussed, or he did indeed die this way but at a later date. If he was a commercial traveller he could have died well away from home.


Regards

Valda

[avm228]

Diana, have you ascertained (perhaps from his birth and/or marriage records) that James WARNER was his full name? Obviously any middle names would make it easier to narrow down possibilities for his death.

Anna

[Sandymc47]

Hi Dianne
Might have solved some of the reasons James went missing.
I disregarded the tram accident as I think sometimes you used to
tell your kids anything to make them shut up if they kept asking where
Daddy was.
I mentioned earlier that I saw James and Eliza on the 1871 census
and he was a newsagent. Well on the 1901 census he is still a newsagent
but living with a different Eliza who is 15 years younger than the Eliza on
the 1871 census. They are living together in Edmonton and they have 3 step children whose surname is still left as Barnett, but it does state that the
new Eliza is called Mrs Warner.
This of course doesnt mean that James didnt get killed by a tram but if this is him the dates may be a lot farther on than you think.
I did find on the 1901 census a James John Warner living alone as a widower in Fulham and occupation a Carman. 
Both these James are old enough to be the James your relative. I did look for any tram accidents around the time you mentioned but couldnt find a specific one for you. Sorry.
Hope this is your James and thats maybe why you couldnt find him.
regards Sandymc 

[dianat]

Thank you so much to you all for spending time on my family history. I am extremely grateful.

I believe that James John Warner did not have a relationship with Eliza Barnett in Edmonton.  According to Ancestry, this James Warner was James Edwin Warner.  Its always possible that once again the data on Ancestry is incorrect.  I have followed many false leads for quite a few of my family.  What I do know, is that on Ancestry, under the Davis Family tree appear.....James Warner, b. 1844, sons James b. 1869, Thomas b. 1874 and William 1884.  Because I am not a paid up member of Ancestry I am excluded from contacting this Davis family tree.  They might be able to help me if I could.
I am doubtful that my Mother would have not known for sure, that her Grandfather was killed by a tram. The date is the question.  I may, of course, be proved wrong in this.   What I did overlook, was, on my record for the 1891 census, it says that Eliza b. 1847 was married.  1901, still says married.  I don't have the 1911 census, however, if the last marriage, listed by Valda, of Phoebe married in 1907 to Walter Edmund Prodrick states her father's occupation as Traveller, then my great grandfather, James Warner was still alive.
I press on with the search which is getting more and more interesting by the day.
If I can be of any help in researching family history in Tasmania (many convicts came to these parts from the UK) I would be happy to do so.
Thank you all again

[Sandymc47]

Hi again
Does this mean Diana that the James John Warner is yours who was living in Fulham as a Widower on the 1901 census?? and was classed as a Carman?
They may not have been known as a travelling salesman in those days?
If Eliza was still alive on the census they could have had a big separation and he could have felt he was a widower even if he wasnt?
The newsagent I found on the 1901 is called James E Warner which I presume is the James Edward you mention.
Are either of these two your James?
regards
Sandymc

[dianat]

My great Grandfather was James Warner.  Possibly John was his middle name but not Edwin.  He was born in 1844 in Shoreditch as was his wife Eliza born in 1847.  On the 1881 Census he is said to be a General Dealer.  They were living in 16 Wilson Street, Shoreditch.  Eliza and her six children were also living there in the 1891 census.  On the 1901 census, Eliza and five of her children were living at Bevenden Street, Shoreditch.   Their son James Warner born in 1869 became a Traveller, so maybe the mix-up is connected to the son, who was born in 1869.
I know that my grandfather Charles Warner, born in 1877 son of James and Eliza Warner, was an Insurance agent, he would travel around, from house to house collecting weekly insurance contributions.  I am wondering whether James Warner born in 1844 was doing the same in his era. My grandfather Charles Warner worked for the Royal London Mutual Insurance company in Holborn. 
I apologise for my vagueness and thank you all for your helpful advice.
Best wishes
Diana