Contacting orthodox Jewish communities

[doodleysquat]

Hello Justin....thanks yet again. You're right in your assumption of Samuel Asher's name, (that is no more than I've said elsewhere) but I won't comment on the location  & his father wasn't unknown (no need to push me on this...I can work theoretically). What I have been told by someone who apparently knows of 3 or 4 cases where it has proved successful (not many, but the only thing I've got to go on since Samuel clearly didn't take his father's first name as a surname) is that some Jews, when they first arrived in England, realising they wouldn't be able to continue with the old pattern of naming, gave the paternal grandfather's surname as the first name of the first son. Thus, Samuel's father (the original immigrant) would have been Asher & his father would have been Asher Samuel(s)

As I've said, I know it's highly speculative with a very low chance of success, but I'm willing to give it a go.If it's useless, so be it. But I do have all the details from the British census records, so if there is any way I can use those to work back, I can do it, or if there are any sites/subscriptions that would help, I can consult those

[JustinL]

In the period before the adoption of fixed surnames, the paternal grandfather did not have a surname; his own father's forename was used as a byname. This is a patronymic naming system.

So, we have Asher Samuel, i.e. Asher son of Samuel.

His sons and daughters would have been X Asher. Let us assume that one of the sons adopts Asher now as a fixed surname.

This man would only have given the forename Samuel to a son (first or otherwise), if his grandfather were already dead. If the grandfather were still alive, it would have been considered extremely unlucky to call a grandson after him. This was the Ashkenazi naming pattern. It had nothing to do with abandoning the patronymic system, and certainly nothing to do with calling a first son after his paternal great-grandfather to the exclusion of all other names.

If Samuel Asher's father was born abroad, that is the name you should be researching. Was his mother also born abroad? Is there a chance that his parents married in England?

[Redroger]

These names have set me wondering again as I have all of them in my mother's tree. The surname was Ayres, apparently a gypsy showman surname. Are there any known instances of large scale inter marriage between a Jewish and a gypsy community? There is something strange about the entire village concerned.

[doodleysquat]

Thanks very much again Justin.....sorry to be leading you a merry dance. I don't know if Samuel's grandfather was dead when he was born.....I can only assume that in the instances I have been told about (assuming this information to be accurate), this was the case. I haven't been able to find a marriage for his father & mother.

That sounds very interesting RedRoger.....I'd be interested to know what you can find out.

[Jeuel]

http://www.jgsgb.org.uk/ website says their library can be used by non-members.  Not sure if its feasible for you to get to London.

[loouie]

Have you tried contacting jewish museums? they are open for everybody regardless of background and  their volunteers have a wealth of knowledge. The museum is a fantastic forum where you can find out and they can share without you entering their private schere.

Plus they have some wonderful resources. For example the machester jewish museum has a book with the names of all the jewish soldiers who fought on the side of the british empire from new zealnd australia etc.