John Saul & Eleanor Saul (nee Crowe)

[Lisa500]

Hi Ron, Yes we have and its an address in Hoylake, this is the strange thing about it, why would she have traveled all the way to Hoylake from Preston/Carnforth to have the baby? I know if it was illegitimate she wouldn't have had it at home, but Hoylake seems an odd choice. Plus if she had Mable in 1903, then who was looking after Mable during the time Eleanor was in Hoylake?

[sumpter]

New to this, found this website by chance. Mabel Crowe was my grandmother, we know little of her past but we knew she was illegitimate and her siblings as named were her step family born to John Saul after marrying her mother. All the things mentioned about her past we were unaware of and would like to share what we know.

[aggiebagwash]

Lisa can I clarify something you said in an earlier message about illegitimate children not being kept by the mother my research has found the opposite to be true. I have numerous instances in my family and others that I've helped other people with and all of them kept the baby/babies and brought them up whether as a sibling to the mother's siblings or openly as their mother.

I'm not saying that many didn't give their children up for adoption and there were some lucky ones who sometimes were taken in by other family members. There were lots of women who kept their babies and then changed the child's name to their husbands on marriage.


I suggest that you look for a relative in the Hoylake area who could have taken Eleanor in for her confinement and the cover story was she was a domestic servant.  Maybe after the birth she went back home with the consent of her parents to ride out the storm.

How soon after the birth was the Christening because as sure as eggs is eggs Thomas was the likely father. Maybe you could find something about him because she didn't pluck his name out of the air.

Margaret 

[Lisa500]

Hi there,

Thank you Margaret & Sumpter for your responses.

Sumpter - I am very glad you got in touch. Am I right in saying that John was not Mables father? Do you know who the father was? When we've been researching Eleanor we just presumed John Saul was the father of Mabel but being born out of wedlock. Any information about Mable and Eleanor would be greately appreciated.

Margaret - Thanks for the tip about looking for a relative in Hoylake. From memory her birth and Christening were exactly one month apart, meaning that she hung around Hoylake for quite some time. I really do think Thomas Shields was the father, its just so very odd that his name is crossed out on the birth and Christening certificate. Unfortunately unlike Eleanor Crowe, Thomas Shields is a very popular name so its difficult to trace him.

Do you think its strange that if this is the same Eleanor Crowe that she would have kept Mabel (born 1903) but had Marjorie (born 1905) adopted? Also Mable was born in Preston, so why did she feel she had to go to Hoylake for Marjorie?

Thanks again
Lisa

[aggiebagwash]

If you think about it having one child born out of wedlock although not acceptable was endured for many women but to have two illegitimate children she would have been seen as the lowest of the low. She could have been forced by family to give Marjorie up for adoption but maybe things had changed by the time she had Mabel so she could keep her.

I've seen many instances where women have kept two babies and I have one marriage certificate that states she is a widow and it's crossed out and spinster added. So she could have been passing herself off as a widow for years. We may never know what happened to Eleanor and her reasons for keeping one and not the other but either way she ended up back home and married.

Eleanor could have gone to Hoylake to cover up the pregnancy but she could also have been working there. Until we can get to know a little more about her life we won't know much more. Maybe you could do a timeline and see if that offers a solution.

Thomas Shields could have been living in Preston and Eleanor moved to Hoylake for the birth so don't dimiss finding him just yet.

[sumpter]

I only know Mabels history from what my father told me, he too was illigitimate and the father was in fact John Saul her stepfather. My father was "given" as a child to another family who took him in. He was reconciled with Mabel later in life when she had then married Jack Eaves. On the list of siblings there is no mention of Colin who Mabel looked after till his death in the 60's. My father was considered the skeleton in the cupboard right up to Mabels death even though he was her main carer. Unfortunately we have no documented evidence.

[aggiebagwash]

Another sad story of a ruined life. It's such a shame that Mabel's life (like many others) was distorted by her step-father or was he her real father you'll never know will you?

You might not have any documented evidence right now but here's your opportunity to build some for her and your father so that future generations will know the truth.

I'll see if I can find Colin for you.

Margaret

[aggiebagwash]

I can't find a birth or death for a Colin Saul could Colin have been his middle name?

Where was Mabel living when he died?

Margaret

[Lisa500]

Hi Sumpter,

Thanks again for your reply.

I think from what you’ve said John Saul was not Mable’s father, but that John Saul got Mable (his step daughter) pregnant and had your father. Apologies if I’m getting confused but is Colin your father as I wasn’t sure from reading your post? Have I understood everything correctly?

I’m guessing given the situation you don’t know anything about Mable or Eleanor’s history? I don’t suppose you have any photographs of Mable as if we have the same Eleanor that would make them half sisters so we could see if there was any resemblance.

Lisa