Joshua Say: Birth Lookup Soham

[rosie99]

Good question, Rosie!
Wake up  I'm finished!

best wishes
esdel

     

Sorry I am no further forward    

The IGI does appear to cover Soham for the 1850's period on  Batch Number P011731 but there is no sign of anything relating to any Say family there between 1600 and your Say baptisms in the late 1700's.  I don't think you can assume that Joshua was born Soham though he could well have been resident for a quite a while before his marriage there.

Where there any other Say's buried in Dissenters ground ?

Rosie

Rosie

[esdel]

Did his marriage entry say he was of this parish when he married in Soham? That, of course, means that he was resident in Soham at the time of the marriage, not that he was born there.

The 3 Oct 1788 entry on the IGI is odd. It claims to be a birth, yet there's no baptism. Worthy of further investigation. Was it a birth of a dissenter recorded in the parish register?

What was Jeremiah's parish of residence in his 1818 marriage?

It strikes me that there's a lot of assumptions here, based on the IGI, which as you say, is far from complete

Yes there is much doubt but if Joshua and Mary Utting are not his parents then he was delivered by spaceship at Soham!
I was stuck 2 years with him parentless at Soham and some things are very odd:-
Look for ANY children born in Soham in decades previous to 1750
Did the pied piper visit?
Where are they!
Why would Joshua and Mary Kidd, after 12 children in Soham, suddenly pull up stumps and move to Wortwell when his putative father died and had been living?
Why were they so keen as to try for a son John FIVE times?

On the Dissenter bit, I thought that "explained" why none of his children were christened. But AFTER I found Joshua and Mary Utting in Wortwell the christenings all appeared and were in Soham!
As you point out he (or the grandparents!) may have had to use the C of E church or not have the births registered at all (probably illegal)


As for the marriage at Soham, it probably said "both of this parish" and as I had that info already from birth data I would not write it down as a "discovered fact"

Now you see why I need expert help!
Many thanks
esdel

[bedfordshire boy]

On the Dissenter bit, I thought that "explained" why none of his children were christened.
As you point out he (or the grandparents!) may have had to use the C of E church or not have the births registered at all (probably illegal)

As for the marriage at Soham, it probably said "both of this parish" and as I had that info already from birth data I would not write it down as a "discovered fact"

It wasn't illegal not to have a child baptised in the established church. That's why it can be so difficult to trace non-conformist families, other than through marriages which unless Jews or Quakers had to be in the Church of England pre 1837

"probably said" is inadequate! Did it or didn't it! What's the "birth data" to which you refer?

[esdel]

It wasn't illegal not to have a child baptised in the established church. That's why it can be so difficult to trace non-conformist families, other than through marriages which unless Jews or Quakers had to be in the Church of England pre 1837

"probably said" is inadequate! Did it or didn't it! What's the "birth data" to which you refer?

In theory you (or the vicar) got fined if you failed to register births. This was quite a problem for Dissenters unless Jew or Baptist as you point out.

The principal birth data are
Joshua 1750 at Soham
Mary Kidd at Soham Jul 1760
and later on the data for their 15 children.

We, a group of my good friends, collected this; as far as possible from independent sources. Where two or more sources agreed, and did not clash with what we know already, we did not record the separate sources nor why we supposed them "independent" or "accurate".
We only did this when there was a problem

At the end of the day there is only credibility.
Is it really credible that each of 15 children recorded at Soham were in facy born at Wortwell or Little Plumstead by another Joshua and Mary Kidd living there.

Joshua is no problem - there are hundreds
But the only Kidd we found is
Mary Kidd 1760 at Soham to 1826 at Wortwell (or Denton) Norfolk

A farmer might have property in both places and regularly move back and forth. So I am hoping to find a Will that clarifies this.
When I was up there 2 years ago I visited a place called Saye Farm

Many thank for your help
esdel

[bedfordshire boy]

In theory you (or the vicar) got fined if you failed to register births

It was only after the Births and Deaths Registration Act of 1874 that parents could be fined for failing to register a birth. Pre 1837 there was no mechanism for registering births

The principal birth data are
Joshua 1750 at Soham

So what are the data for his birth in Soham? I can't see that there are any. You have a Joshua married in Soham, children baptised in Soham, burial age 68 in Norfolk, but nothing to indicate where he was born/baptised.

[rosie99]

Out of interest do you have a copy of the will of John Say, Gentleman of Wortwell , Norfolk
Date 07 March 1763. If so does it give any clues?

Rosie

[esdel]

That's a promising line of thought, Rosie.
Can you tell me a bit more about him, his family and the beneficiaries

Although I have many John Say, only two are Wortwell and they both died young
All my John Say(e) are listed by their birth date

I can't find that Will in NOAH - how might I assess it?

Thanks
esdel

[bedfordshire boy]

See http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/browse-refine.asp?CatID=6&searchType=browserefine&pagenumber=1&query=*&queryType=1

It'll cost you £3-50 to download a copy

[bedfordshire boy]

A few random thoughts.

Joshua and Mary married in Oct 1778, yet their apparent first child, Rachel, wasn’t born until 1 Apr 1781. Where were they in that two year period.

There’s a big gap in the Soham registers in the decades before Joshua and Mary started having children in 1781, where are no Says. I don’t think Joshua was from Soham.

You mention Little Plumstead, just outside Norwich. I think it’s a red herring. A Joshua and Mary baptised a daughter, Ann, there in 1789. Unless it was an adult baptism she can’t have been the daughter of Joshua and Mary Utting who married in Norwich in 1749 and baptised a son, so you say, in Little Plumstead in 1750. It looks more likely that the Joshua and Mary who also baptised two children in Norwich in 1781 and 1783, and couldn’t have been the Soham couple as there are two children born in Jan and May 1783, one to each couple, was the Joshua baptised in Lt Plumstead in 1750. So I would rule them out. Reference to Lt Plumstead and St James Pockthorpe, Norwich parish registers might help in eliminating him.

There is a Joshua Say of Little Plumstead, Norfolk who married Mary Utting 1 Oct 1749 at St Mary in the Marsh, Norwich....They seemed to stay in Wortwell and Joshua senior died there in Wortwell in 1755.......

   
The thread mentioned below puts the death in Lt Plumstead, not Wortwell (as does the LDS pilot site) . Thus there's no link between Norwich and Wortwell

You make the point that Joshua seemed keen to name a son John (although it might simply be a case that he wasn’t very imaginative with names), which if you’re right might suggest that his father was John. Have you seen the thread at http://boards.ancestry.co.uk/surnames.say/42.1.1/mb.ashx where it’s suggested that he might be the son (or grandson?) of John Say who died in 1763 – presumably the same John whose 1763 will Rosie found?

Have you checked Wortwell parish register for baptisms?

I'd start with the 1763 will

David