Author Topic: Wrong baptism all along.  (Read 18884 times)

Offline richarde1979

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Re: Wrong baptism all along.
« Reply #18 on: Wednesday 03 November 10 12:07 GMT (UK) »
I wonder if your right Ben. 3 Burials seems alot and why is their no trace of them at either St Dunstan's or St Mary's, the only two churches in the area of the East End at that time they were living in? The French Chapels did not have their own burial grounds or permission to bury dead. We do know she died during that period. This is a printed version of the original accounts so there is room for error to have crept in during the copying from the original ledger books of the payments made. It stands to reason, with husband Tobie away at Sea, that the family may have turned to the local charitable institutes to pay for her burial.
Bellenger, Sebire, Soubien, Mallandain, Molle, Baudoin - Normandy/London
Deverdun, Bachelier, Hannoteau, Martin, Ledoux, Dumoutier, Lespine, Montenont, Picard, Desmarets - Paris & Picardy/Amsterdam/London
Mourgue, Chambon, Chabot - Languedoc/London

Holohan, Donnelly, McGowan/McGoan - Leitrim, Ireland/Dundee, Scotland/London.

Gordon, Troup, Grant, Watt, McInnes - Aberdeenshire, Scotland/London

Offline richarde1979

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Re: Wrong baptism all along.
« Reply #19 on: Wednesday 03 November 10 12:23 GMT (UK) »
Also I wonder whether 'Pen' in this context might mean an army or naval pension, if Tobie was at sea with the royal navy? Since Tobie himself was not born in France, I do wonder whether he would have been visiting relatives at that date, 46 years after his father had fled? Would contact have been kept up with uncles, cousins who remained? Though the persecutions didn't end until the 1780's, certainly after Louis XIV's death in 1715 some did return to France, some permanently, some to visit relatives. An extreme example from my own tree is one Claud Andre. He was one of a dozen or so men with my ancestor who were banished for life from France in 1721, in what was quite a cause celebre at the time 'famous across Europe'. Caroline the Princess of Wales, later Queen to George II had personally intervened to get the mens freedom, and asylum in England. Though they were allowed to bring some family, Claude was one of the older of the group, probably therefore with stronger financial and community ties back in France. He risked defying the royal decree banishing him, and returned to his home town Nimes within 5 years, though the unfortunate fellow was struck by lightening and killed outright there in 1729. It does however show if he, a famous banished exile, could return to France in 1726/6, other less conspicous Protestants probably could and did so also.
Bellenger, Sebire, Soubien, Mallandain, Molle, Baudoin - Normandy/London
Deverdun, Bachelier, Hannoteau, Martin, Ledoux, Dumoutier, Lespine, Montenont, Picard, Desmarets - Paris & Picardy/Amsterdam/London
Mourgue, Chambon, Chabot - Languedoc/London

Holohan, Donnelly, McGowan/McGoan - Leitrim, Ireland/Dundee, Scotland/London.

Gordon, Troup, Grant, Watt, McInnes - Aberdeenshire, Scotland/London

Offline coombs

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Re: Wrong baptism all along.
« Reply #20 on: Wednesday 03 November 10 13:30 GMT (UK) »
Hi Richard

Having checked the burial register it does say Pen after some other burials so the Pen might not stand for pension. Maybe he was a child of Tobias which would rule out Samuel as a son of him.

Saying that, Samuel could well be a relative of Tobias. Is there a chance you could list all of the siblings of Tobias?

Ben
Researching:

LONDON, Coombs, Roberts, Auber, Helsdon, Fradine, Morin, Goodacre
DORSET Coombs, Munday
NORFOLK Helsdon, Riches, Harbord, Budery
KENT Roberts, Goodacre
SUSSEX Walder, Boniface, Dinnage, Standen, Lee, Botten, Wickham, Jupp
SUFFOLK Titshall, Frost, Fairweather, Mayhew, Archer, Eade, Scarfe
DURHAM Stewart, Musgrave, Wilson, Forster
SCOTLAND Stewart in Selkirk
USA Musgrave, Saix
ESSEX Cornwell, Stock, Quilter, Lawrence, Whale, Clift
OXON Edgington, Smith, Inkpen, Snell, Batten, Brain

Offline richarde1979

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Re: Wrong baptism all along.
« Reply #21 on: Wednesday 03 November 10 13:52 GMT (UK) »
Hi Ben

Gabriel and Louise had two children when they arrived in England in 1681 not named in the records. One of of these must have been Jeanne Louise Obe who married Jacques Pougneau 1708 in La Patente Huguenot Chapel.

These are the other children baptised in England.

Pierre Aube 11 MAY 1684 Threadneedle Street French Huguenot
Louise Obe 07 NOV 1686 Threadneedle Street French Huguenot
Susanne Aube  28 OCT 1688 Threadneedle Street French Huguenot
Elizabeth Aube 16 NOV 1690 Threadneedle Street French Huguenot
Louise Obe 17 JUL 1692 Threadneedle Street French Huguenot
Marie Madelaine Aube 25 MAR 1694 Threadneedle Street French Huguenot
Tobie Aube 20 SEP 1696 Threadneedle Street French Huguenot
Louise Obe 25 JUN 1699 Threadneedle Street French Huguenot
Jacques Gabriel Obee 25 MAY 1701 Threadneedle Street French Huguenot

The only baptisms to give extra info, was the last two, Louise's stating Gabriel was a Silk Weaver living in Wheeler Street, Spitalfields,  Jacques's stating again Gabriel was a Silk Weaver, adress now given as Pheonix Street, Spitalfields.

Some of their children died, as there are the following burials, children of Gabriel, at St Dunstan's, where he is again described as a weaver, first of Spitalfields, then of Bethnal Green:

Peter Obee             Burial     4 May 1683 
Susanna Obee    Burial    20 Jun 1691
Mary Obey            Burial    12 Dec 1691
Elizabeth Obey    Burial     6 Aug 1694
Jacob Obey            Burial     20 Nov 1705

It is worth noting that at this point Threadneedle Street was using the Gregorian Calender, as used in France, with the year starting on January 1st, which had not yet been adopted in England, who were still using the Julian, which started later March. There is therefore a possibility of dates conflicting between the records of St Dunstan's and Threadneedle Street.

Only two of Tobie's siblings I can definently account for his sister Jeanne Louise, who married Jacques Pougneau 1708, and his sister Louise, who married, James Fret  26 Dec 1719 at  St Dunstan, with her name anglicsied on the record as "Lucy Obee". As I say I also believe Jeanne Aube, who married Daniel Michaud, 9 April 1705 at St Dunstan, was a close relative, either another sister or cousin. Her name is recorded on that record as "Jane Aubey".
Bellenger, Sebire, Soubien, Mallandain, Molle, Baudoin - Normandy/London
Deverdun, Bachelier, Hannoteau, Martin, Ledoux, Dumoutier, Lespine, Montenont, Picard, Desmarets - Paris & Picardy/Amsterdam/London
Mourgue, Chambon, Chabot - Languedoc/London

Holohan, Donnelly, McGowan/McGoan - Leitrim, Ireland/Dundee, Scotland/London.

Gordon, Troup, Grant, Watt, McInnes - Aberdeenshire, Scotland/London


Offline richarde1979

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Re: Wrong baptism all along.
« Reply #22 on: Wednesday 03 November 10 14:31 GMT (UK) »
Ben

I can't say we have proven Samuel as belonging to this group..but by process of elimination it seems likely.

Gabriel and his branch are certainly the first and earliest to come, and the tesmoignages now looking at them show this was clearly from the Paris region.

The next Aubers came from the Bolbec region of Pays De Caux, Normandy (Montvilliers, Criquetot, Fecamp etc) in summer 1687.  Philemon Auber and his wife Elizabeth Maret, with their son Daniel,  and his brother Jean Auber and his wife Susanne Le Moisse with their sons Jean and Pierre. Pierre married Elizabeth Louvet at Threadneedle Street Oct 1689, and Jean (jr) his brother married Rachel Hue May 1690 at Threadneedle Street. Daniel Married Susanne De la Mare around 1712.

Pierre became a succesful master silk weaver in Norton Folgate. His son, Pierre b.1691, married his dads cousin daniel's sister Marie De La Mare, and his sons and grandsons carried on the weaving business, for the best part of the next century in Spital Square.

It is worth noting the family above always spell the name Auber or Aubert. There is no a gap in their baptisms where Samuel would likely fit, and were not Anglicised, still using the French churches at the period we are looking at. In fact two of Pierre's sons Jacques and Isaac,  married sisters Anne and Marie Galhie, and had their children baptised at Threadneedle Street 1755-1776. These are 100% regular recorded as 'Auber'. So it appears this familyresisted assimilation and were not using Anglican churches for a long time.


The next branch was again from Normandy, but this time Beauville, on the outskirts of Caen. A Jacob Auber, son of Jacques Auber and Magdelain Moutier, born around 1670, seems to be the originator of this branch, and had several children baptised at La Patente with his wife Elizabeth Bosquet 1702-1716. Two of his sons Daniel Abraham Auber, and Adrian Auber baptised their children there also 1727-35, so this family were also still using the French churches for their baptisms the period we are looking at. The name for them is recorded as Aube/Auber/Aubair...but never Obe or Obey or Obee.


The next branch was a Josue and Ann Auber who came from Amsterdam in 1706. They had one son also Josue baptised 1708 at Threadneedle than I lose sight of these.

A Jean/John Auber had three daughters with his wife Susan Deheulle baptised 1722-25 at Threadneedle Street. Susanne is a distant cousin of mine and from Bolbec, so he is probably a relation of the 1687 Bolbec branch. I think he is likely the son of Jean Auber and Rachel Hue.

A Louis Auber came over in 1723 from same place St Eustache, Bolbec. He was given testimony by Daniel Auber, above of the earlier 1687 Bolbec branch, so was also likely a relation of theirs. He and his wife Elizabeth Le Comte had 7 children baptised at Threadneedle Street between 1728-1748.

There are then no new Aubers coming until the later waves.  A Jacques Auber, from Notre Dame Du Bec, around 1740. A Pierre Abraham Auber who cam, again from St Eustache, Bolbec in 1743, and his brother James Abraham Auber, who joined him from the same place, ten years later in 1753. They were baptising children at Threadneedle Street until the mid 1770's. Their name is almost always recorded Auber, once as Aubert.

So you see Gabriels branch are the only Aubers Angliscised at early enough time to be Samuels family, and the only one who frequently use Obey/Obe/Obee/Aube/Aubey spelling variants in both the French and English records. I do not find the 'o' variants ever attached to any of the other families, in the French sources.
Bellenger, Sebire, Soubien, Mallandain, Molle, Baudoin - Normandy/London
Deverdun, Bachelier, Hannoteau, Martin, Ledoux, Dumoutier, Lespine, Montenont, Picard, Desmarets - Paris & Picardy/Amsterdam/London
Mourgue, Chambon, Chabot - Languedoc/London

Holohan, Donnelly, McGowan/McGoan - Leitrim, Ireland/Dundee, Scotland/London.

Gordon, Troup, Grant, Watt, McInnes - Aberdeenshire, Scotland/London

Offline richarde1979

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Re: Wrong baptism all along.
« Reply #23 on: Wednesday 03 November 10 17:41 GMT (UK) »
Ben

This is probably unrelated, because Tobias and Jane had their daughter Sarah baptised exactly 3 weeks later at St Dunstan's, but on 1 April 1722 at St Mary's Whitechapel a baby is entered as 'Samuel..the friends went away and gave no account of his parents names'. Probably not our man but thought I would put it out there just in case.
Bellenger, Sebire, Soubien, Mallandain, Molle, Baudoin - Normandy/London
Deverdun, Bachelier, Hannoteau, Martin, Ledoux, Dumoutier, Lespine, Montenont, Picard, Desmarets - Paris & Picardy/Amsterdam/London
Mourgue, Chambon, Chabot - Languedoc/London

Holohan, Donnelly, McGowan/McGoan - Leitrim, Ireland/Dundee, Scotland/London.

Gordon, Troup, Grant, Watt, McInnes - Aberdeenshire, Scotland/London

Offline coombs

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Re: Wrong baptism all along.
« Reply #24 on: Wednesday 03 November 10 18:12 GMT (UK) »
Hi Richard

God these Aubers do give us a merry dance. I reckon Samuel is related to Gabriel Auber/Obey as their surname is the only one that divides between Auber and Obey.

That Samuel in 1722 could be him. Probably not but you never know.

Ben
Researching:

LONDON, Coombs, Roberts, Auber, Helsdon, Fradine, Morin, Goodacre
DORSET Coombs, Munday
NORFOLK Helsdon, Riches, Harbord, Budery
KENT Roberts, Goodacre
SUSSEX Walder, Boniface, Dinnage, Standen, Lee, Botten, Wickham, Jupp
SUFFOLK Titshall, Frost, Fairweather, Mayhew, Archer, Eade, Scarfe
DURHAM Stewart, Musgrave, Wilson, Forster
SCOTLAND Stewart in Selkirk
USA Musgrave, Saix
ESSEX Cornwell, Stock, Quilter, Lawrence, Whale, Clift
OXON Edgington, Smith, Inkpen, Snell, Batten, Brain

Offline coombs

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Re: Wrong baptism all along.
« Reply #25 on: Wednesday 03 November 10 18:30 GMT (UK) »
Hi

My Samuel had a daughter called Susannah Obey and a son called Jacob who both died as infants as well as Samuel born 1750. Could they have been named after the siblings of Tobias?

Ben
Researching:

LONDON, Coombs, Roberts, Auber, Helsdon, Fradine, Morin, Goodacre
DORSET Coombs, Munday
NORFOLK Helsdon, Riches, Harbord, Budery
KENT Roberts, Goodacre
SUSSEX Walder, Boniface, Dinnage, Standen, Lee, Botten, Wickham, Jupp
SUFFOLK Titshall, Frost, Fairweather, Mayhew, Archer, Eade, Scarfe
DURHAM Stewart, Musgrave, Wilson, Forster
SCOTLAND Stewart in Selkirk
USA Musgrave, Saix
ESSEX Cornwell, Stock, Quilter, Lawrence, Whale, Clift
OXON Edgington, Smith, Inkpen, Snell, Batten, Brain

Offline richarde1979

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Re: Wrong baptism all along.
« Reply #26 on: Wednesday 03 November 10 18:57 GMT (UK) »
Hi Ben

I've just rewritten some of the above as I found new info, and thought it might have mislead anyone coming upon this thread at a later date researching the Aubers. Basically I think there were three main branches of Aubers/Obe's The first From Il de France/Paris 1681. The second from Bolbec region 1687-1753 in several waves, but all related, the third from Beauville Caen around 1700.

The Caen branch was started by a Jacob. So it's possible Samuel might link to them instead? However I still favour Gabriels 1681 branch as most likely. They certainly have a child born around the right time we can't, at the moment, account for who could be Samuel. The spellings of their name best matches the pattern found for Samuel.

I guess we can never know for certain unless we do find a baptism to settle the matter. I am close to exhausting my own resources here...and admit I am beginning to run short of ideas.

Bellenger, Sebire, Soubien, Mallandain, Molle, Baudoin - Normandy/London
Deverdun, Bachelier, Hannoteau, Martin, Ledoux, Dumoutier, Lespine, Montenont, Picard, Desmarets - Paris & Picardy/Amsterdam/London
Mourgue, Chambon, Chabot - Languedoc/London

Holohan, Donnelly, McGowan/McGoan - Leitrim, Ireland/Dundee, Scotland/London.

Gordon, Troup, Grant, Watt, McInnes - Aberdeenshire, Scotland/London