Author Topic: Lady Ann of Clontarf?  (Read 76321 times)

Offline Joseph L. Oliver

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Re: Lady Ann of Clontarf?
« Reply #36 on: Friday 10 December 10 17:03 GMT (UK) »
Hi Monica and Shane:

I've been searching today with Scotlandspeople for Jessie's parents and am not having success, though I'm not sure I'm fully utilizing the advanced features.

Sent an inquiry to ScotsFamily.com.  Looks like he is a professional researcher.  Will see if he comes up with any tidbits, and how much he charges.

And Monica, yes, that shadow between 1850 and 1880, with no info from the 1860 and 1870 censuses, is very frustrating. 

My only hope so far is James F's application for naturalization, saying that he sailed from Dublin and arrived in Philadelphia.  I would kill to see the actual copy of the ship manifest in order to find the year, and the names of accompanying family.  But so far no luck in finding the manifest.

Regards,

Joe
Burke, Sutherland, Curtis, Cuter, Koplik

Online MonicaL

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Re: Lady Ann of Clontarf?
« Reply #37 on: Friday 10 December 10 17:37 GMT (UK) »
To be honest Joe, might be an idea to hold off viewing entries on Scotlands People, until we get a better steer as to what we are looking for, given it is a pay to view site. It can become a costly business when you are searching with little info. I have looked at the 1841 census for Scotland for inspiration but nothing immediately jumped out. Also, looking at IGI on www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/frameset_search.asp?PAGE=igi/search_IGI.asp&clear_form=true for Scottish births and christenings, brings up numerous possibilities for a Jessie (or Janet as both these names are common variants) born to a John Sutherland circa 1828 with a couple of years either side.

Have you considered the suggestion of putting up a new post on the US board here on RootsChat? American RootsChatters will hopefully be able to assist with US records or sources that we can't think of at this point :)

Monica
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Offline shanew147

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Re: Lady Ann of Clontarf?
« Reply #38 on: Friday 10 December 10 18:29 GMT (UK) »
....
I checked the index for Thom's 1848....for his father John Burke :

  Mr. John Burke, 16 Summer St N.
  John Lardner Burke, LL.D. T.C.D., 3 Nrth Gt. George's St - master of the Bective house seminary
  John Hogan Burke esq., 12 Kildare St
....

A few more possibles for John Burke from the index sections for later years :

1850
  John Burke, auctioneer, furniture and commision warehouse rooms, 50 Henry St
  John Burke, Cashel Hotel, 25 & 26 upr Bridge St
  John Burke, clerk of quit rents, 6 Nassau St
  John Burke, coach builder, 11 Whitefriar St
  John Burke, grocer, wine & spirit merch., 27 Bridge St upr
  John Hogan Burke esq.,  12 Kildare st & Khyber Pass, Dalkey
  John Lardener Burke, LL.D. T.C.D.,  master of the Bective house seminary, 3 Nrth Gt. George's St
  John Burke, tea & spirit merchant, 79 Amien St

1852
Most of the same people as 1850 are still listed, except for the coach builder. One addition in that year - a John Burke, proprietor Spa Hotel, Cooldrina, Lucan (Co. Dublin)

Not everyone is listed in these street directories, but someone described as a gentleman as, John is on James' wedding cert, probably should be ...assuming he was alive and living in Dublin.


Shane
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Offline Pastmagic

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Re: Lady Ann of Clontarf?
« Reply #39 on: Monday 13 December 10 17:43 GMT (UK) »
This is  a shortened version of the description of Clontarf in "Chapters Of Dublin". Interesting in itself as a picure of 18th C Clontarf, but also giving names of the then Gentry re your mysterious Lady Ann.

"There was a day, however, when Clontarf had more of life and animation than it now possesses, when people of good condition came to stay at the Brierly Baths, when titled carriage folk drove backwards and forwards, and when the grand gates of Marino stood open to receive the fine company that came and went, visiting the Earl of Charlemont.

Marino is nearer to Dublin than Clontarf, on the Fairview Road. It is an old house, having been once the residence of a Cromwellian Attorney-General, Basil by name. It was a gift to the "great Earl" from his stepfather Thomas Adderley.

The letter in which this gentleman makes this present to his young stepson shows a nice feeling not always existent in the difficult relationship in which they stood to one another. There is, perhaps, rather an over-strained humility in his address, while at the same time he describes his gift as not inferior to any house near Dublin, either with respect to situation, taste, or convenience.

Lord Charlemont accepted the gift, but soon his craze for building and altering asserted itself, and the Lodge, as it was then called, became a sort of hobby, upon which he lavished large sums of money. The first thing was to change its name to Marino, which was undoubtedly appropriate, as the waters of Dublin Bay wash its southern verge.

Not that he began it with this object. He was in the zenith of his mental activity - an activity which required many channels. Architecture was one of these outlets; and on his return from Italy he was, as it were, possessed with an art fever........
.... and when Charlemont House was completed, and its gallery and museum crammed with objets d’art, the Earl returned to his original idea of making a retreat for himself in the leafy woods of Marino. In 1757 Sir William Chambers (then Mr. Chambers) drew the design, and a beautiful model was made by Bonomi, which is now in the Irish Academy....
 .....The deceased gentleman was known to have been a collector of bric-a-brac and curios, and to have two cabinets and some Chippendale furniture which he had bought at the Charlemont sale. The fame of the Charlemont collection was enough to attract brokers from London and Cheater as well as Dublin. Curiously enough the cabinets went for a mere song. The Chippendale fetched a large price.]


It had a strong attraction for the late Lady Charlemont (Elizabeth, daughter of Sir William Somerville, Bart.) - her very heart was in the place. She often said it was like the love Queen Mary had for Calais, and that she too would die when Marino was no longer hers. Her words came true, for she only survived the sale of her loved retreat a few months. The writer has many pleasant associations connected with Marino, where many of the days of her youth were passed, that golden age when all and everything is tinged with a halo of glory.

The Crescent, close to Marino, was, it is said, built to annoy Lord Charlemont by obstructing his view on the Dublin side. It has never taken as a place of residence.

At the farther end of Clontarf, on the road leading to the green lanes, is Clontarf Castle, which is built on the site of a monastery belonging to the Order of the Knights Templars. The old Castle, which since Queen Elizabeth's time has been in the possession of the family of Vernon (the same as Admiral Vernon, whose tomb is in Westminster Abbey), was rebuilt in the earlier portion of this century. Its late owner, John Venables Vernon, was for many years a well-known figure in Dublin society.

Another Clontarf mansion is St. Anne's, formerly the residence of Sir Benjamin Lee Guinness, *and now occupied by his son, Lord Ardilaun, one of the most unobtrusive benefactors of his own country, Lady Ardilaun being well known as an accomplished artist. The views here reproduced give a good idea of this fine mansion.

*His Wife was Lady Ann, maiden name Lee. (My note) Ref wikepedia

PM
PS Have you considered contacting: http://www.clontarfonline.com/history.htm

Or taking the items to a jeweller or art expert for their provenance. There may be marks on the Jewellery which could link them to a particular goldsmith etc.


Offline Joseph L. Oliver

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Re: Lady Ann of Clontarf?
« Reply #40 on: Monday 13 December 10 19:31 GMT (UK) »
Pastmagic:

Oh my gosh...  Could this be her??  This is bizarre:  the Wikipedia article notes that Anne Lee's husband Arthur Guinness lived from 1768–1855.   Almost exactly one year ago, I estimated 1768 as the birth year of the Lady Anne of our family (b/w 1752 & 1783).   

And yes, a week ago I contacted Clontarfonline/history with a two sentence inquiry.  I just located their reply in my spam folder, and have sent them the full information they requested. 

In the meantime, I did a Google search with the term "Lady Ann of Clontarf" and came up with the following on Google Books:  "A genealogical and heraldic history of the landed gentry of Ireland" By Sir Bernard Burke, Ashworth Peter Burke. 

Is it simply coincidence that a Burke is the author?  The document is fascinating, but I can't fully make sense of it.  Does it hold any promise for tracing the Lady Ann you've found to any Burkes of Clontarf? 

Page 459:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Ha0EAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA459&lpg=PA459&dq=Lady+Ann+of+Clontarf&source=bl&ots=Hq_LYw-Hzv&sig=bZMoN0DpYSKglRmGKFVXZ1clvVE&hl=en&ei=sVwGTYXpDM7YnAfIg8DlDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CEAQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=Lady%20Ann%20of%20Clontarf&f=false

Can't wait to hear more.  Thank you so very much!

Joe O
Burke, Sutherland, Curtis, Cuter, Koplik

Offline hallmark

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Re: Lady Ann of Clontarf?
« Reply #41 on: Monday 13 December 10 19:49 GMT (UK) »
The Crescent in Marino caused a lot of tension at the time!

I reckon the Roses who were witnesses were the Roses of Mount Temple whose lands ran up to Killester and the Guinness lands. They were witnesses BUT were they also the guardians?
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Offline Pastmagic

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Re: Lady Ann of Clontarf?
« Reply #42 on: Monday 13 December 10 21:23 GMT (UK) »
That Burke was Sir Bernard Burke. Lots of full text versions of his landed irish gentry on Google Books. Lot of info on Wikepedia about him also.

The on line free serachable version is at:

http://thepeerage.com/p30212.htm#i302111

But I have not searched in it for you. I'd be a bit cautious that you have found your lady Ann quite yet! PM

Online MonicaL

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Re: Lady Ann of Clontarf?
« Reply #43 on: Monday 13 December 10 21:41 GMT (UK) »
I agree PM...not quite sure we are yet on the trail...

Sir John Bernard Burke was the Burke family I mentioned earlier:

Got a little bit excited about a Sir John Burke Snr in the right age group to potentially be father to James, who together with his son, also John Burke went on to create the massive genealogy archive and works that are now Burke's Peerage records....but no, no son James Francis in the family.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Burke

This relates to his father John Burke http://thepeerage.com/p33294.htm#i332937 - his children are listed, last born in 1820. His mother by co-incidence was called Ann  ::) but no James Francis shows as born to them.

Monica

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Offline Pastmagic

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Re: Lady Ann of Clontarf?
« Reply #44 on: Monday 13 December 10 23:18 GMT (UK) »
Hi Joe,

I am still wondering about the objects left by the mysterious Lady Ann. Have they ever been dated or identified?  Was there a photo ever taken of the wedding dress? Some one might recognise who it was designed by.  Love to see them up here, if so. if they were in my family I would try and find a museun or gallery or jewellery specialist to see what clues they hold. Like a personal antiques roadshow! Were there any other things in the collection other than those you mentioned?

Monica, of course you are right - there might have been an intermediate  generation of sons,  I missed that! back to thinking,,,,,PM