Lady Ann of Clontarf?

[hallmark]

Have Wills been checked?

[Joseph L. Oliver]

PM et al:

This is so so so very exciting and intellectually fascinating.  Thank you all for your interest, your efforts, and your musings.

Monica, I forgot about your earlier exclusion of Sir John Burke Sr.  Sorry about that.
 
PM: the only artifacts are the ones I mentioned.  And no photos exist of the dress.  The only thing I possess is the photo of the ring.  My cousins and aunt have the silhouettes, portrait and ring.

No, the artifacts have not been dated, nor have they been brought in for appraisals.  The painting and two of the silhouettes are in Florida with my eldest aunt, and she has not found anyone in her small town to do any appraisals.  There might be someone in Chicago where I live that might have some expertise, but the last time I inquired was last year and I came up with no one.  Doesn't mean a qualified expert doesn't exist here.  Perhaps I should find someone and get the thing looked at. 

The strange thing about the portrait of Lady Anne is this:  just after WW2, my grandmother brought the protrait to the Art Institute of Chicago to have it reframed (I can hear your collective screams).  And yes it was in the original frame.  When the folks at the AIC frame shop opened it up, three beautiful silhouettes fell out of the backing.  I've seen one:  it is not simple or crude at all.  Very detailed and beautiful.  And my aunt says that the three are definitely not the same woman.  They are distinctly three different people.

My Aunt remembers the frame:  it was a "table" frame, less than 12" tall, with a heavy base that supported the frame in a gimbaled support so that the frame could be tilted up or down (and I believe side to side)

I've inquired at the AIC if they have records dating back that far from their frame shop.  They actually might, but I do not have the exact date of the transaction for them to search for the records.

Hallmark, I'm not sure what exactly you mean about wills.  Do you mean for James Francis Burke?

That's all for now folks.

Sincerely,

Joe O

[Pastmagic]

Yes, very loud scream indeed!  Anyway of getting a photo of Lady Ann? To compare with other photos in the UK National Portrait Gallery etc. Quite a lot of 18thc. portraits on line now...and it depends on condition whether photographing is ok...How do you identify this lady as Lady Anne? Oral tradition or is there an annotation?. I love the hidden mystery within a mystery angle...PM

Have established there was only one Lord Clontarf. "Chapers of Dublin" again: Re Kilmanham and the Knights:

Their ambition, which grew with their prosperity, alarmed Henry VIII., while their wealth excited his cupidity. Their destruction was a foregone conclusion; but their fall was accelerated by the pusillanimity of the Prior, Sir John Rawson, who meekly surrendered to the King the abbey and church, together with the fine pasturelands and crops growing in rich luxuriance.

For this giving of no trouble Sir John was duly reinstated in his sovereign's favour, and was further rewarded by being created Lord Clontarf, a title which became soon after extinct.....

And so the Knights Hospitallers sank into oblivion, sharing the fate of all the monastic orders in England and Ireland. The fine monastery and church became a ruin; and when in 1565 Sir Henry Sidney was appointed Governor, he found it unfit for occupation."


Clontarf Castle before the 18th Century: (Just Wikipedia}

The first castle on the grounds, of which no trace remains, was built in 1172 by either Hugh de Lacy, lord of Meath, or his tenant Adam de Phepoe. Clontarf was subsequently held by the Knights Templar and, after their suppression in 1308, passed to the Knights Hospitaller, until they were in turn deprived of it at the Dissolution of the Monasteries. The last prior, Sir John Rawson, was created Viscount Clontarf in 1541 in return for surrendering the castle and its lands to the crown.

Does the legend in your family allow that it could be much earlier..?
Off to have a Look for Rawson's wife and kids....PM

[Joseph L. Oliver]

PM:

Oh, yes...  the allure of the mystery, plus the many layers.  It is absolutely intoxicating.  I almost don't want this to stop.  But I do, and I'll tell you the reason why.

My great grandmother Jessie is revered among my mother and her siblings.  My mom's parents were fairly nuts and abusive, while her grandmother Jessie and grandfather Joseph were unconditionally loving and genuinely kind.  My mom and her eldest sister spent lots of time with Jessie and Joseph, whose fortune was wiped out with the Depression.  Despite their loss and extreme change in living conditions, they were happy, and they loved to share their happiness and whatever else they had with their grandkids.  They also told great stories that my mom and her sisters and brother loved to hear, and the story of Lady Anne reached back the furthest.  Because of the artifacts, and the tradition of handing them down through the girls, generation to generation, the connection with Lady Anne and my mom and here sisters was very magical, yet very real.

There were many other objects kept of Jessie and Joseph's lives, but when my mom's father died in the 1980's, his second wife left the country without telling anyone, after selling or trashing all of the family heirlooms, photographs, diaries, etc.  All that we found was an empty house that we couldn't go in because it had been sold.  It devastated my mother.  She couldn't speak for two weeks.

So my aunts are in their 80's and my mother in her 70's.  Their brother, who was very much a part of this research and discovery, passed away one year ago.  Lady Anne has been so much a part of their joyous memory of their grandmother, their entire childhood.  The stories of her are part of what bonds them together.  Years ago it became my quest to make real this person who's presence they have felt all their lives.  Before any more of them leave this earth, I would love to be able to give them that gift.

So, the help that all of you are providing is quite a gift to myself, but is especially appreciated on behalf of my mother and her siblings.  They are thrilled.

PM, I digress.  Answers to your post with my next post.

Joe

[Joseph L. Oliver]

PM:

In answer to your question, the identification of the portrait being of Lady Anne is strictly an oral history.  So far my aunt has not detected any writing on the front of the painting.  Who knows what was on the backing of the original frame.  I'm fairly certain she has looked at the back of the actual painting and found nothing.  I will contact her today to emphasize the importance of having it carefully photographed so we can all see it.

And regarding your question about if Lady Anne could have lived earlier.  No, I doubt it.  My aunt is very clear that her grandmother Jessie said this:  "Lady Anne was my 3rd great grandmother."  In researching my aunt's stories, I've found that she is rarely mistaken.

Regards,

Joe O

[Pastmagic]

I do have a similar situation in my own family, and it turned out a usually very reliable source was out by 200 years on a legend. The facts were correct, the generation wrong.

Anyway, for what it is worth, the only Lord Clontarf, despite starting out as a catholic priest did marry....

http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/b/r/o/Michael-W-Brown/GENE4-0059.html

http://www.archive.org/stream/gentlemansmagaz260unkngoog/gentlemansmagaz260unkngoog_djvu.txt

"John Rawson, born Abt. 1457 in London, ENGLAND; died 1560; married Female Unknown.

Sir John left a daughter, Catherine, who married Rowland Whyte, son of Patrick Whyte, second Baron of the Exchequer in Ireland. This armorial of Sir John Rawson was placed in one of the windows of Swingfield Church, a chapel dedicated to 
St. Peter. The Parish of Swingfield was included in the property of the Knights of St. John of Jerusalem, and is located five miles from Folkestone, in the County of Kent. "

So for what it is worth, depending on the validity of the source there was a
 putative Lady Clontarf, who had at least one daughter, just out on dates for  yout grandmothers account....interesting to see if following Catherine Rawson Whyte would lead to your Burke's! Just speculating.....PM

[Joseph L. Oliver]

PM:

Thank you for your efforts, I hate to throw cold water on this, but my Aunt recalls being told that Lady Anne's husband was not a Lord or a Duke, he was an Earl.

And I'm having problems quoting from previous posts.  Can you help me with that?

Joe

[shanew147]

PM:

Thank you for your efforts, I hate to throw cold water on this, but my Aunt recalls being told that Lady Anne's husband was not a Lord or a Duke, he was an Earl.

And I'm having problems quoting from previous posts.  Can you help me with that?

Joe

According to Purpeller's earlier post (see reply #6) the wife on an Earl would be known as a countess, but  daughters would have a 'courtesy title' of Lady X.

to include a quote from a previous message just click on the quote button on the reply you want to include - or if already in the reply mode, then scroll down the screen and click the small 'Insert Quote' Link. Ensure that the cursor is in the message edit box at the location you wish to insert the quoted message.


Shane

[Pastmagic]

I know, it is madly confusing!  If your grandmother is right, then you are looking for the  Daughter of an Earl in 1768 (b/w 1752 & 1783), first name Ann, wih Contarf connections. As there is clearly no Earl of Clontarf around at that or any other time, that is hunt the Earldom Thimble Territory!

To make matters worse, Catherine Rawson, daughter of John Rawson Viscount Clontarf, married Rowland Whyte, who had connections to the Earl of Howth! :

  Google books - Patrick Whyte Exchequer dublin

Anyway, maybe that is enough of te interesting speculation.. The wills question by Hallmark...I assume this means your family wills in the USA and anything in the Irish National Archive on the Burkes? PM

Mod Note : link shrunk