Lady Ann of Clontarf?

[Pastmagic]

Just remembered there is one family who may fit the bill, and had property near Clontarf: The Earl of Altimont, (Brown) dates approximately right... who had a wife called Anne Gore. They had very strong Burke Connections, through Mary Burke, Grandaughter of Grainne O'Malley.

I donnt know if you know much about the Burkes in Ireland:

http://indigo.ie/~wildgees/burkes.htm


Joe, I am sure this must be a lot to read up on  as you only found the Clontarf marriage so recently...

De Burgh is the Irish for Burke.

Oddly enough, this, in relation to the earlier speculation about Lady Anne Guiness states:

"Part of the Burke property which the Brownes retained was later sold by the Brownes to Sir Benjamin Guinness about 1860." And the Burke of Burke's peerage is of this family too! PM

PS also of interest might be:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westport_House

[hallmark]

The wills question by Hallmark...I assume this means your family wills in the USA and anything in the Irish National Archive on the Burkes?

Yes, have Wills been checked in the Registry of Wills and Deeds in Blackhall Place, Dublin or even abroad, which may mention property in Ireland?

IF the Roses were the guardians....  Why? Were they related?

If a man was given "title" of Gentleman, what "title"was given to his wife??  Mr Burke, gentleman and his wife Mrs Burke, Lady?

Just wondering!

[Pastmagic]

Not an expert, but I think "Gentleman" as occupation  on BMD's meant he lived off private means. His wife would be plain Mrs. However, You have a point - could John Burke have had a title is the question you are posing?, and the Vicar did not record it? What a lot of conundrums! PM

[hallmark]

Not an expert either but I was thinking in the terms of "Ladies and Gentlemen....."

Introducing Mr Burke and his lady wife....etc.

Just getting back to the marriage in Clontarf, and what is actually known;

Edward was most probably a brother, so does anyone know what happened to him?
The witnesses COULD easily be the guardians.

They were married with consent of the guardians, not the parents. So, did the parents not consent, or were they deceased? The father was in the army, so where did he serve? Where was he at time of marriage?

The marriage cert gives clues  A, B, C, D, E... but to get to Z one needs clues F, G, H, etc...continuing on from what is on the cert.

[hallmark]

http://www.archive.org/stream/irishcompendiumo04nich      Contains the descents, marriages, issue, titles, posts, and seats of all the nobility of Ireland; with their arms, crests, supporters, mottos and Parliament robes ... Also a supplement, shewing the antiquity, dignity, and use of armories ..


http://www.archive.org/details/irishmarriagesbe02farr  Irish marriages, being an index to the marriages in Walker's Hibernian magazine, 1771 to 1812.

These might be worth searching!

[Pastmagic]

Great finds,Hallmark.  I agree with you totally about going from a-z lineraly, I am hoping to find James Frances Burke in some minor branch of the Gentry....

Maybe Joe could print out the Compendium for his mother and aunts - might jog their memories and it is a lovely ould bit of the history in itself. Give Joe stressed speed, I did a bit of an Earl Hunt. Of the Right Dates, Cumberland married an Ann, but according to Burke's peerage,  (often misses children) none of the children had issue. Howth married  a Margaret Burke,

Then there is this chap: Major William Burke the second son of William and Margaret Burke acquired part of the Bermingham and Quansbury estates by his marriage to Matilda, daughter of William St Lawrence 2nd Earl of Howth. ( Joe Howth is beside Clontarf)

There are a couple of Sir John Burke's as well, but no obvious Clontarf or James Francis  Burke connections. I am still with Rawson of Clontarf Castle myself, hoping I can find my way downwards,....Joe may not realise what an intermarrying lot the Irish Earldom was -all of the families mentioned so far are  many times over related, and all have a Burke popping up somewhere, thanks to the DeBurghs. if we ever do find Lady Ann, she will probably bring a coach load of other notables into his family tree!

Re: The Barrister Shane found, he  may be the one that edited Edmund Burke the Orators speeches!

Is it possible that Jessies family were Irish, and she was just born in scotland because her father was in the Army? There are a lot of Sutherlands
on irishgeneology.ie, some in Beggars Bush Barracks. I'll keep hunting....PM
Cant find sight of Jane Ross or Edward anywhere...

Hope joe had a good nights sleep - talk about info overload!

[hallmark]

Well I don't think Clontarf was the family church anyway, otherwise there would be more records for them.

The bride was living in the parish but under guardianship. One doesn't have to live in a parish very long to "be of that parish"..

To me, it looks like a "one off" marriage....plus these people had estates elsewhere, Charlemont in Tyrone, Roses in Monaghan etc at same time, so records may not even be in Dublin, forget where Lawrences came from.

You can't really do just one family alone because, as you say, there are so many families intertwined with each other you get 2nd, 3rd cousins marrying each other, but you only know this by doing each connected family and get the cross-connections.

Even now one gets back to the "old" spellings, deBurca etc. Not sure if you saw Chris de Burgh's lineage on WDYTYA.. they traced his line right back to the Bayeaux tapestry and even picked out the person as depicted on the tapestry, I've seen "Sootherland" on records too... so you really need to keep an open mind on spellings etc.

[hallmark]

COMPLETE WILDCARD HERE BUT;

There is marriage in 1809 of a Rev John Burke to a Mary A Guinness, looks like she's daug of Dr Guinness..

Speculation; Does Mary A = Mary Ann? Could Rev John Burke be a Gentleman also?

http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/reels/d-298-1-1-025.pdf

[Pastmagic]

Guiness owned the land  at st. Anne's, and his wife was also called Anne..have to check if they had any children - if Mary Anne was their sons eldest daughter.....still speculating....Joe are you still with us? St. Anne's is also beside Clontarf.....

 Re The marriage entry....I think both - a clergman was considered to be a Gentleman. But I imagine that his occupation might have been then listed as Clergyman. But again,  vicars had their individual ways of recording.

I do agree with all your earlier points. I guess I just wanted to see if Lady Clontarf had any provenance, and to give Joe an idea of the complexity of the gentry! Obviously, if he was in Dublin there would be plenty of archival research he could do,  Hayes catalouge, newspapers, marriage settlements, wills, army records, land etc.

It is all too possible that they lived in Clonarf for the required time! I suppose Joe could contact :The Representative Church Body Library, Braemor Park, Churchtown, Dublin 14, Ireland

Telephone +353 (0)1 4923979
Fax +353 (0)1 4924770
E-mail library link on:
http://www.ireland.anglican.org/index.php?do=about&id=43

to find out if there were any banns, license or Guardianship papers asocciated with the marriage. Or if the Rev. Burke had any children....

I wonder if the consent of  Guardians meant she was not 21?

Ms. Ross and Edward continue elusive....PM