Baptism - St Peter's Church, St John Street Road

[pasdlm]

One of my ancestors, William Munday, MAY have been christened at St Peter's. Not found in the IGI and it does not appear as if this church is covered in the IGI.
He was born about 1819/20 in Clerkenwell and censuses give birthplace as St John Street Road. His father was Thomas. Nothing else to help.
Younger siblings (probably from the first wife) were christened at Providence Chapel, St Marylebone - a nonconformist Wesleyan church.
So, if not Peter's, he might have been christened in another nonconformist church. If, as I suspect, William was born from second wife, I have no knowledge of marriage or name of the wife.

So starting with St Peter's - does anyone know how I could search for this baptism without travelling all the way from Scotland to London?

pasdlm

[t mo]

hello there
i,ve just had a look in the non conformist records on the genealogist site and the nearest baptism to your timeline is 1814 with a fathers name of valentine , there, s not another one till 1828  both of these are for london districts .
also looked on ancestry and the only william i could see with a fathers name of thomas was 1822 in guildford
trevor

[Valda]

Hi

So this man

1851 census HO107 1536 folio 414
8 Dean Street Shoreditch
William Munday 31 Head Married Clerk in a lace manuf ^ity St John St Road
Elizabeth Munday 29 Wife Married St Lukes
Thomas W Munday 8 Son Bath Place New Road
Elizabeth C Munday 5 Daughter City Road
Walter Munday 2 Son Turner Street Hoxton
Eliza Munday 4 Daughter 8 Dean Street North Road

He gave Clerkenwell in 1871 - family not found in 1861 so where does St Peters come from?

If this is his marriage?

17th January 1842 St Mary Islington
William Munday Full Age Bachelor Appraiser 5 Camden Street Thomas Munday Gentⁿ
Elizabeth Jones Minor Spinster 3 Popham Terrace John Jones Appraiser
Both signed
Witnesses John Jones and Priscilla Mary Smith

then this census

1841 census HO107 664/3 folio 22
Camden Street Islington
Thomas Munday 60 Independent not born in county
Susan Munday 50 not born in county
William Munday 20 Clerk born in count
Ruth Munday 15 born in county
adult ages, those over 15, usually rounded down to the nearest 5 on the 1841 census

and marriage

30th January 1840 Holy Trinity, Islington
Thomas Munday Full Age Widower Gentleman 5 Camden Place Robert Munday Brewer
Susannah Sadler Spinster 118 Fetter Lane William Sadler Farmer
Both signed
Witnesses Jane and Thos Boys

possible connected burial, though this woman would be very young for a birth of a child circa 1819/1820. She could be a daughter or the age could be wrongly given in the burial register. She died just before the start of civil registration.

St Mary Islington burial 18th May 1837
Maria Munday aged 32 Camden Street

There is a baptism for a Maria Munday in 1806 at the Providence Chapel Marylebone a child of Thomas and Maria Munday

and census

1851 census HO107 1501 folio 213
5 Camden Street Islington
Thomas Munday 73 Head Married Retired Butcher Chippenham Wiltshire
Susan Munday 63 Wife Married Encombe Wiltshire
plus 4 lodgers and 1 servant

and will

Prerogative Court of Canterbury will

Will of Thomas Munday, Gentleman of No 5 Camden Street Islington Green , Middlesex 01 May 1852 PROB 11/2153

His will may very well give details of his surviving children.

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/power-search.asp?searchType=powersearch


Ruth Munday (minor) married 2nd December 1841 St Mary Islington to David Mason Goodwin a butcher of Camberwell. On the 1851 census she was living in Shoreditch aged 28 and gave her birthplace as Clerkenwell. One of the witnesses to the marriage was Thomas Munday junr.

A Thomas Boys married a Jane Munday 14th November 1838 at St Mary Islington. Her address was 5 Camden Place and her father Thomas Munday gentlemen. Thomas Boys was a widower and builder. Jane a spinster of full age. On the 1851 census the Boys family were living in Shoreditch. Jane was aged 43 and born in St Sepulchre in the City of London.

There is a baptism at the Providence chapel in 1808 for a Jane Wilkins Munday - parents Thomas and Maria

13th December 1843 St Mary Islington Thomas Munday a butcher and bachelor of full age of Old Street, father Thomas Munday gent married Eliza Hawkins a spinster of Camden Street. He gives his age as 49 on the 1861 census a retired butcher born London living in Hackney.

There is a baptism for a Thomas Munday in 1811 at the Providence Chapel in 1811 parents Thomas and Maria.

Full entries for the Providence Chapel baptisms can be found on this website (there is a charge to view)

http://www.bmdregisters.co.uk/

Non-conformist baptisms are often more detailed and can give further information about the mother including her maiden name and parents' names.

The website does have a burial for a Maria Munday in 1823 (no age given you have to view the entry) but it is in Bermondsey at a Wesleyan Chapel.


THOMAS MUNDAY
Christening:  21 DEC 1777   Chippenham, Wiltshire
Father:  ROBERT MUNDAY  
Mother:  ANN  

5 other siblings baptised at the same church

There is a will for a Robert Munday gentleman of Chippenham (the terms means of sufficient income not to have to work) proved in 1817

http://www.rootschat.com/links/0b8u/

Thomas and Maria may well have married in Wiltshire before moving to the London area. The IGI (Family Search) coverage of Wiltshire registers is not particularly good.


As far as non-conformist records are concerned - not all have survived. There are no Anglican parish churches in Clerkenwell at that time called St Peter's

http://homepages.gold.ac.uk/genuki/MDX/Finsbury/churches.htm

At the start of civil registration the majority of the non-conformist churches (not Catholics) did a deal with the government to deposit their records with the government in return for them being recognised as legal documents. This is why The National Archives hold so many non-conformist records for the pre 1837 period (a later smaller deposit of records was made in 1855). It also means why the baptisms and marriages were so easily accessible to the IGI (Family Search) for indexing (not done for the Quaker records) and why so fewer non-conformist records pre 1837 are held by county record offices (though they do have the microfilm copies). Ancestry's deal with the London Metropolitan Archives and the Guildhall Library for church registers is only for those that are deposited at these archives.



Regards

Valda

[pasdlm]

Dear Trevor and Valda,

All the information you gave me, Valda, is my family.

I am only suggesting St Peter's because he gave his birthplace as St John Street Road and Clerkenwell in the 1851 and 1871 censuses respectively, and St Peter's Church apparently was in St John Street Road and would be the nearest.
As you also quite rightly say - they are missing from the 1861 - most annoying!
Also the marriages and Will you give are exactly correct - well done!! And what a lot of information you gathered in such a short space of time!
I have done a google search for St Peters also known as The Smithfield Martyrs' Memorial Church and St Peter Ashley Road. The site also gives an old  picture of the church which was bombed in 1940 and demolished in 1956.
The Genuki website you gave Valda mentions St Peters as The Smithfield Martyrs' Memorial Church and St Peter Ashley Road.
So to sum up - it seems as if there are no nonconformist birth records for a William Munday around 1820 even though these are archived and available. And maybe St Peters church is mentioned by its alternative name(s).
Even for Ruth (born about 1823), the younger sister to William -  the birth/christening records can't seemd to be found. If Thomas married a second wife between 1811 and 1820 - why can't we find a marriage? This should have taken place in the established church because only these were officially recognised.
pasdlm

[Valda]

Hi

The GENUKI site also gives the date of when each church was founded which is why I said not for the period you were interested in.

'Clerkenwell, St.Peter's, Ashley Street (otherwise St Peter, St John Street Road or The Smithfield Martyrs' Memorial Church) [1872]'

over 50 years after the birth of William.


There is no evidence that Thomas' 'first' wife did die after the birth of the first children whose baptisms have survived and before the births of the two other known children. I stress known because of course there may have been others in between who likewise do not have any surviving baptisms. Non-conformist registers have a much lower chance of survival than Anglican records, as evidenced post 1837 when without the intervention of the state to preserve the records, many of the churches where pre 1837 records survive have no post 1837 historical records which survive.

Thomas' will which you can purchase online from The National Archives may give information about other children (if they survived). Do you have a copy of the will?

There is still the chance that the Maria Munday burial is correct. Bermondsey is just across the Thames from the City of London and Jane Boys nee Munday gave her birthplace as St Sepulchre. It is also a Wesleyan burial. It may of course be a complete red herring.


Regards

Valda

[pasdlm]

Dear Valda,

Thank you for pointing out the date of establishment of St Peter's church.
Yes, I have a copy of Thomas' Will after his death in 1852. There are 6 children mentioned in his Will - the four in the IGI - Maria (daughter), Thomas (son), Ann and Jane Wilkins; as well as William and Ruth. No indication of a second wife from Will.
I have just assumed the death of wife Maria because of the lengthy gap between 1811 and 1820. But correct - there is no definitive evidence. No other children are mentioned in the Will. Hence the reason for my assumption of a second wife, also deceased when his Will was written. I'm assuming Susannah/Susan is the second or third wife.
I shall follow up the death of a Maria Munday in 1823. I presume its at the website http://www.bmdregisters.co.uk/  that you mention?
Many thanks,

pasdlm

[Valda]

Hi

When was the will written, before or after the burial of Maria Munday in 1837 who was of Camden Place? If it was written after that burial it cannot be his daughter Maria particularly if his daughter was married in the will. You do not bequeath anything to those that are already dead though they might be mentioned in the context of bequeaths to their children in which case it usually states deceased.
That could bring back into the frame the 1837 burial. The register quite clearly states aged 32 and there is now no way of checking the entry against a death certificate to see if it was an error because the death occurred just before the start of civil registration less than two months later.

Regards

Valda

[pasdlm]

Dear Valda,

Will was written on 1 Dec 1846. I have just checked the Will again (very difficult to decipher!) but only four children are mentioned - Jane Wilkens Boys (nee Munday), Thomas, William and Ruth Goodwin (nee Munday).
I believe the death of Maria aged 32 in 1837 is the first child of Thomas and Maria.
It is the burial of a Maria Munday in 1823 in Bermondsey that I need to follow up. This may be the first wife.
Regards,

pasdlm

[pasdlm]

The Maria Munday buried in 1823 in Bermondsey was only 1 year 8 months old so the identity of William and Ruth's mother remains a mystery.

pasdlm