Wife of Edward Roberts?

[sheabear]

Yes, I had no time to reply but was very excited to see your message. Thank you so much for your help, just to have it confirmed is fantastic as now I can order the birth certificate like you suggested and go from there. I have been looking for answers for Benjamin for a long time and didn't know how to get them but you have kindly offered your time and help and I greatly appreciate it.

The brick wall has been torn down! 

[wilcoxon]

Thanks to a very kind  man who took the time to do some look ups, it seems probable that this is your Benjamin.
He  found these baptisms which match the names. He didn`t find a marriage in the Church.

Entries taken from the Parish Registers of Bagillt: Baptisms.
No. 1690. June 4th 1891: Robert son of Edward Thomas and Annie ROBERTS, Bagillt, father labourer, preformed by R. Owens, vicar.
No. 1744. December 15th 1892: William John son of Edward Thomas and Annie ROBERTS, Bagillt, father labourer, preformed by R. Owens, vicar.
No. 1792. February 28th 1892: Thomas son of Edward Thomas and Annie ROBERTS, Bagillt, father labourer, preformed by R. Owens, vicar.
No. 1849. April 22nd 1896: Benjamin son of Edward Thomas and Annie ROBERTS, Bagillt, father labourer, preformed by R. Owens, vicar.

There is a chance we may have found a marriage, but I don`t want to post details yet as it will confuse things, it`s best to confirm Annie`s name from the birth certificate and take it from there one step at a time.

1901 RG13/5236 folio 169 page 8 Ryll Flintshire
52 Victoria Row

2 families

Jane Hughes widow age 49 charwoman Llandullus Denbighshire
Sarah Jones Married age 25
Gwladys Hughes dau age  4 Ryll
/
Edward Roberts age 41 widow farm lab all born Bagillt Flint
William John son age 10
Thomas son age 8
Benjamin Roberts son age 5

Pam

[sheabear]

Brilliant and very helpful information, thank you to you and the very kind man for his time. I will confirm Annie as the mother as soon as the birth certificate arrives but the baptisms are great as it adds another piece to the puzzle.

Thanks again, I will post details on the birth certificate when I have it. 

[wilcoxon]

Details from shebear on the birth certificate.

Benjamin Roberts b. 9 March 1896
Father: Edward Roberts (Gadhp Lane, Bagillt) Farm Labourer
Mother: Ann Roberts formerly Johnson

It was interesting, where Edward was supposed to sign it has a X and it says "the mark of Edward Roberts" - I thought that this was possibly because he couldn't write?

[wilcoxon]

Johnsons

1891 5 Bull cottage, Bagillt.
Richard Johnson head widower 67 gardener b Malpas b 1824
Annie Roberts M dau 34 b Northop b 1857
Edward Roberts Son law 35 collier  b Bagillt
John Johnson son S 18 moulder b Northop
Edith Johnson grand daughter 6 b Northop
Robert Roberts grandson 1 month b Bagillt.

1891  Edward Roberts / Annie Johnson. Civil marriage Holywell. March  qtr.
So Annie was pregnant. 

Where is Annie in the census between 1871 and 1891 At 15/17 she would be old enough to be working away from home  but there`s no sign of her.

1881  Her family. No Annie ?
RG11; Piece: 5505; Folio: 21; Page: 35 Dublin Row Northop
Richard Johnson 56 ag lab out unemployed  b Cuddington
Marthar Johnson 52 b Northop
Richard Johnson unm 18 brickmaker b “
Elizabeth Roberts dau mar 24 b “
Thomas Roberts gr son 5 b “
Maria Roberts 2 gr dau b “
John Williams 8 gr son b “

1871 No Annie ?
RG10; Piece: 5643; Folio: 9; Page: 9
Old Chester Road, New Brighton.
Richard Johnson  48  carter at brewery b Malpas c 1823
Martha Johnson 43 b Flint
Benjamin Johnson 20 unm coalminer b Northop
Elizabeth Johnson 15  b Northop
Martha Johnson 13 b Northop

1861
RG9; Piece: 4272; Folio: 31; Page: 9;
Dublin St Northop
Richard Jonson 36 railway labourer b Malpas c 1825
Martha Jonson 35 b Northop
Benjamin Jonson 9 b Northop
Ann Jonson 7  b Northop  1854
Elizabeth Jonson 5  b Northop
Martha Jonson 2 b Northop

1851
Class: HO107; Piece: 2501; Folio: 239; Page: 4
Pentre Moch Northop
Richard Johnson 26 labourer out of employment  b Malpas
Martha Johnson 24 b Northop
John Johnson 3 b Northop
Benjamine Johnson 8 months  b Northop

Richard Johnson / Martha Jones married St Eurgain and Peter. Northop 1847.June q
This could be checked in the Church registers for fathers names.
Hopefully Martha`s  Dad wasn`t John.

1841 Tattenhall, Malpas, Cheshire.
Richard Johnson 15 male servant Y.

Family search. Batch no C 86603-4  This was found on Pilot site.
Richard Johnson, christened 7th May 1824, born Cuddington / Christened Malpas,
Mother Ellen Johnson. Residence Malpas . No father named.  What a shame.

It looks like thats the end of the Johnson trail unless a father is named on the marriage entry to Martha Jones.

Going back to the marriage. It was a civil marriage , so to be sure of Edwards father the certifcate will have to be bought.
1891  Edward Roberts / Annie Johnson. Civil marriage Holywell. March  qtr.

But we do know Edward had the middle name Thomas , and there is a birth registration,  Dec 1859 Birth. Edward Thomas Roberts, Holywell 11b 46
Problem is there is no Edward Thomas Roberts I can find in the census, so which of the Edward Roberts is the right one.

[sheabear]

Wow, amazing information, thank you so much!

So Robert Roberts was Annie and Edwards son? That is extremely useful information as I am also looking for Benjamin Roberts two older brothers that died in the war and I never knew their names. A little shocked Annie was pregnant when she was married, it would have been a big deal back then!

I am confused at Elizabeth Roberts in the 1881 census, did Annie's sister also happen to marry a Roberts and were Thomas and Maria her children?

This may be a silly question, but how do we know Edward's middle name was Thomas?   

Thanks again for all your help. I am getting married in 6 days so I will have to get my hands into this information when I get back from the honeymoon. I can't wait, you have given me so much to look into. 

[wilcoxon]

Edwards full name is given in all the baptisms found .
No. 1849. April 22nd 1896: Benjamin son of Edward Thomas and Annie ROBERTS, Bagillt, father labourer, preformed by R. Owens, vicar.

It looks like Elizabeth Johnson married a Roberts, and possibly another daughter married a Williams. See 1881.

It strikes me as a bit odd that Edward and Annie didn`t marry in Church , but their children were baptised in one, of course they could have been married in a Chapel, that would still be classed as a civil marriage.
I don`t think it was a `issue` that Annie was pregant, there are many illegitimate baptisms in any registers you look at.

[wilcoxon]

Elizabeth Johnson / Roberts .  Still no husband around.
Ireland has been added by Elizabeths entry , but I think they are presuming Dublin Ireland, but there is a Dublin, Northop as well. See 1881
I doubt if she was Irish she would be able to speak Welsh 
Still no husband at home, but more children born since 1881.
I can`t find a matching Johnson / Roberts marriage 

1891  RG12; Piece: 4607; Folio 6; Page 6
High St Northop,
Elizabeth Roberts  marr 35 living on own means b Flints , Dublin speaks both Engish and Welsh.
Thomas Roberts 15 b Northop
Maria Roberts 10 b "
Richard Roberts 7 b "
Edward Roberts 1 b "
 

[wilcoxon]

Very best wishes for your wedding, hope you have a wonderful day.

 I think I ve found Annie Johnson in 1881/81 with some help .

1871  RG10; Piece: 3734; Folio: 30; Page: 31
Grocers shop Hawarden
Archibald P Elstoh (n) 23 grocer b Liverpool
James E Hodge 20 painer b Churchtown Lancs.
Arnie ( Annie)  Johnston 17  dom servant b Northop.


1881 RG11; Piece: 3564; Folio: 16; Page: 2
Castle stable yard,  Hawarden
Charles Cottrell 30 groom b Wiltshire
Sarah Cottrell  wife 24 b Maidwell, Northamptonshire 
George Cottrell   4 months b Hawarden
Annie Johnson  visitor 26 domestic  servant b Maidwell, Northamptonshire 

Northop sounds  like Northampton , could there have been a mistake.
There`s only one similar born in Northampton about the same time but she was not born in Maidwell.
I think the enumerater has got it wrong.