London Ontario

[Templar75]

Thank you all so very much, your help is more than I could have imagined, the thing is, the details on the little boy seem to be perfect and the age of Helen seems to be right, however the other childrens names don't ring a bell, my late aunt said she had met Helen, Francis, Helen and Judy,not unless the others passed away through sickness.

Helens parents names may have been William Conway and Ann Buchan, but if she was a Buchan then I will need to look for her further.

If she is the right Helen then she should have been born in Scotland, The Buchan family are all recorded as being born in Ireland but that was in the 1851 Census, so the Helen that is on the shipping list can't be her, or as I said perhaps they all died and she is the correct one.

On the Conway side they were all born in Scotland I think only the mother and father were Irish.

I will have to try and do more searching here in Scotland, but at least I have names that I can work on and I thank you again for that.

Do any of you live near a town called Campbellford, it's about 3 hours from Toronto, we love visiting there to see my wife's aunt, such a clean little town, we love the Canadians, you are all so friendly and can't do enough to help us when we are there, and it shows through this posting as well.

Take care.

Best regards.

Archie.

[RunKitty]

Hi Archie,

If the passenger lists are for the correct family, Helen was only 33 when she arrived in Canada.  She could certainly have had more children.   You said that you believed that daughters Helen, Frances and Judy were born in Canada.   Do you know when your aunt came out to stay with the family?  If this is the right family, the older children could have either died or married and moved away by the time your aunt visited.     

I believe that Ontario births up to 1913 are now public - with 1914 ones soon to follow.   So, you won't be able to use these records to find out about Helen, Frances and Judy - if they were born in Ontario after 1914.    

There are quite a few Dempseys on the cemetery finding aid site (Susan posted the link).  Check under Middlesex County.  Not every cemetery listing is on this site, but it has a few possibilities.  Was the family RC?  There are a few people with the right names in St Peter's Cemetery, London, Ontario.   

I am so pleased that you enjoy your visits to Canada.     

Good luck with your research,
RK

[Templar75]

Hi RK,

             They were RC, I just wonder if my mothers old cousin perhaps got things wrong regarding Patrick, she was 93 years old at the time, it could have been Joseph, but as explained earlier they all lived in the East Lothian area, Ann Buchan who married William Conway moved up to Mid Lothian Edinburgh to a place called Liberton where they eventually died.

The Buchan family I was told seemed to stay in East Lothian moving to Dunbar and North Berwick, being farm workers or farm servants they moved around a lot, this really makes it hard to locate them especially on the Census, if they answered the Census questions they either gave the wrong age and even the country of birth.

I know that my grandmother lost four of her children born earlier in one year, ranging from 5 years old to 5 months, I sat one night with a lump in my throat wondering how she and my granddad felt, they were all buried in paupers graves just up the road from me.

My aunt Mary was working for a while in the 1960's in Long Island NY, so while she had a break she went up to visit the family, I am sure I have photocopies of them somewhere of, Helen and the daughters, they were fine looking girls, the girls may have been in their 40's.

If I find the photocopies, do you think I would be able show them on this site ?.

If I can find Helen and any more details I would love to share them with you all if that is OK.

Best regards.

Archie.

[susano]

Hi Archie

I've just had a close look at the entries for Helen Dempsey and children on the Grampian passenger list.  Their religion is RC so that matches.  In the column headed "Country of Birth" the clerk who completed the form has used a lot of check-marks but the last written entry around passenger #10 in that column is Scotland.  In Helen's entry, the racial origin is entered as Irish, which would relate to her ancestors.  If they originally came from Ireland, then she considered herself of Irish origin.

In my own family, my grandfather was born in Canada as was his father.  His mother was second generation Canadian....but they all considered themselves of Irish origin as that's were the ancestors were originally from.

As RK correctly pointed out, Helen was young enough to have had more children born in Canada.  Unfortunately, with our strict privacy laws in Canada, the birth records will not be accessible for many years...most provinces have a 100 year rule and in BC they've recently changed it to 120 years!!  If your aunt visited in the 1960s then the older children were all very likely living away from home with their families.  As you know, Canada is a very large country and families did spread out.

The story of the circumstances of young Patrick's death that you were told so closely matches the death entry that RK found that I personally wouldn't discount it.

I live on Vancouver Island on the West Coast of the country...so many miles from Ontario.  Unfortunately, I have never spent any time in Ontario but I'm so happy that you have enjoyed your visits. 

If you need some help sorting out the lot in Scotland, then I would post on the appropriate board in the Scotland section on Rootschat.  There are some very excellent researchers on there.  Additionally, I love the Scotlandspeople site for searching...it does cost $$ but after awhile you learn how to get the most for your credits.  The fact that the original certificates are immediately available is a big bonus.

Continued good luck with your research. 

Susan

Edited to add:  I love when people follow up their posts with new-found information.  Many threads are revisited....even after a few years.

[Templar75]

Hi Susan,

                thank you so much for explaining the information to me it does mean a lot, as I said earlier I wish they had spoken more about the family, but there again I don't think I asked them about the family.

In those days children were told to be quiet and so we did, nobody was really bothered back then where they came from, thanks to the series ROOTS all that changed.

In Scotland life was hard and to make it worse so were the Taxes, we had Taxes for Windows, Hearth ( Fires ), Watches, Horses and Carts and many more. So when people visit here they will see windows bricked up, many of the old houses had the fireplace bricked up as well.

Anyway,  thank you very much Susan and the rest of my friends here as well, please take care.

Best wishes.

Archie.

[susano]

Hi Archie

I should have added that the explanation of why someone would say they were Irish was pure speculation or opinion on my part based on my ancestors.  Sorry if I've led you astray.

Thank you for the information about life in Scotland and the heavy taxation.  My knowledge of Scottish history is severally lacking.  I did have one grandmother from Fife so have done some research in the country but I definitely should do more reading.

I did have one day in Invergorden and one in Edinburgh on a cruise last June.  Both areas were most interesting, but as time was so short in each port, I would definitely like to return with research in mind and visits to areas where my ancestors lived.

Susan

[RunKitty]

Hi Archie and Susan,

If Archie can find photos of the daughters (Helen, Frances and Judy), perhaps there may be some writing on the back?  Maybe Aunt Mary made some notes, or had some letters from them?   If the "girls" were in their 40s in the 1960s, maybe one or more of them is still alive???   Just a thought!

I agree with Susan that the details of little Peter's death are so similar to your own story that it would be worthwhile to follow up on this and see where it leads (i.e. a newspaper article or a tombstone with more information).  

Susan, I have come across exactly the same thing in regards to questions of "origin".  The answer seems to have been where your father and his family came from.  My grandmother's family came to Canada  in the early 1830s.  She has told me the story of being asked about her origin (I would assume for the 1921, 31  and 41 censuses).  She would say "Canadian".  But, since Canadian citizenship only came into existence January 1947, there was no such thing as a Canadian at that time.  They asked where her father was born  (Canada), where her grandfather was born (Canada) and wher HIS father was born (Scotland), so she was put down as being of Scottish origin.  Her mother's family came from Ireland and England, but nobody was interested in that. 

Archie, I really hope that some of the information we found fits in with your family somehow.  At least you have a few more leads to check out when you are doing your research.   I too would love to hear what you find. 

It was a lovely sunny day here in Ontario.  We have lots of snow, so it looks like a picture postcard outside.  I am sure that Campbellford looks especially pretty today!

Good luck with your research and please keep us posted! 

RK

[Templar75]

Hi Susan,

                please do not apologise I know exactly what you mean, my wife had a friend who was born here in Edinburgh and so was her sisters, their mum and dad were Irish so the whole family spoke with a very thick Irish accent and they too considered themselves Irish.

I have a friend in my Knights Order who was born in England, his parents were Scottish, even as an Officer in the Army he always considers himself Scottish, never call him English.

I found the missing link her name on the 1881 Census is " Ellen Conway " aged 4 years, of course it could be " Helen " it would be written down the way they said it, sort of lazy. Ellen was born in 1877 in Gifford East Lothian, but do think I can find it on Scotland's People, a resounding NO, I am doing this for my three sons and grandchildren as they asked me where they came from.

Anyway, checking Ellens birth as 1877 that would have made her 37 when she traveled to Canada, I hate to impose on you Susan and my helping friends on this subject but, just along from Helen or Ellan's age there is a 7, next to that there is a stamped " Husband "  then next to that handwriting with something like 1 year in Canada, would you or my friends know what they mean ?, eyes are getting sore.

Hi RunKitty,

                 unfortunately as far as I can remember there are no dates or even an area in London where they lived, I am sure Helen or Ellen you have given me are one and the same person. There is to much of a coincidence with young Peter being killed the way he was, also one of them being married to a Polish Lad, I was at the time told his name but never noted it down.

I will not stop until I find Ellen's marriage lines, I hate being beat but right now she is the sucker punch.

Well the snow has cleared here thank God but tonight we have rain and gales, oh for an easy life, sorry to hear you are being hit with snow, look on the bright side you get fantastic summers, what do we get, nothing LoL.

If any of you decide to come to Edinburgh please let me be your guide, my wife and I would love to run you about and see other places of interest ( History ). I will send you my e-mail privately and my phone number should you wish to take the offer up,the Edinburgh Tourist Guides don't tell you half of what you should know, in other words a rip off.

 Well it's 2am here now so off to bed, Night night.

Best wishes.

Archie.
 

[susano]

Thank you so much for your generous offer to act as tour guide.  If I do manage to get back to Edinburgh, I will definitely get in touch.

Regarding the written portion next to the stamped TO HUSBAND on the Grampian passenger list, I think it says "mason 1 year in Canada" which I would take to mean that her husband is working as a mason and has been in Canada for one year.

Susan