ROBBY BOY

[Rol]

Well done,  Heather -- that is fantastic new info!   It seems to account pretty securely for the two boys who have until now been AWOL in 1851.  And it is great to have that clarification from the Blackwell Index about the Wesleyan baptism at Ruthin.  (Makes me that much keener for a lookup in the Derwen PR/BTs.)

I feel tolerably confident that the 1847 death cert. relates to the right Thomas.  It does match the age of 60 shown for him in the 1841 census entry.  Seeing him there next to a wife with the age "35" originally left me with the usual assumption that their ages had been rounded down in accordance with the normal 1841 rules.  But when one goes back to look at that census page more closely it becomes apparent that the enumerator was one of those heroes who mostly ignored the rules and entered people's actual ages. (Good man! )  Funnily enough though,  Jane's "35" does indeed seem to have been rounded down from the true 39,  to judge by her entry as a widow in 1851 (Reply 15).

The occupation "labourer" sets one theory-building.  One scenario that I quite like for now,  in the absence of anything more attractive,  is the possibility that the mill was temporarily de-commissioned during the latter part of Thomas Davies's period as tenant -- conceivably due to pressure of competition or the need to renew machinery and equipment at a cost that the owner decided he could not immediately afford/justify.  We know that Thomas was labelled as a miller in 1841.  Yet his apparent successor in occupation at "Llwyn Melyn" (William Davies b. Gwyddelwern ca. 1806-07) was described in 1851 as "Farm Labourer",  pretty much like Thomas himself on his death certificate.  By 1861 "Melyn Llwyn" was occupied once more by a tenant described as "Miller" (Humphrey Humphreys b. Derwen 1829-30),  and that remained the case in 1871 (Edward Davies b. Derwen ca. 1831-32 [a DoB which presumably disbars him from being Thomas's son Edward,  b.1835-36 per the 1841 census?]).

I am rather intrigued by the possible relevance of this little item in the N. Wales Chronicle of Tuesday, 19 January 1847:

RUTHIN.-- A pensioner, named Thomas Davies, met his death last week, under the following circumstances. It appeared that he had been at Ruthin, to receive his pension, and afterwards proceeded to Efnuchtyd [sic -- recte Efenechtyd] to see a relative, and started from thence for Clawdd Newydd.  By some mischance he missed his way, and was found next day quite dead in a ditch.

If this was the TD whom we are pursuing,  at least four follow-on questions arise:

1.  Was there an inquest and does any useful record of it survive?

2.  Was there a report in one of the other papers describing the incident with other details but failing to name the dead man?  (No time to look at the moment.)

3.  There must be a fair chance,  at this date,  that "pensioner" meant Chelsea or Greenwich Hospital out-pensioner.  Has anyone access to the relevant sources (FindMyPast)?  If we hit lucky there,  whole new prospects would open up.  Worth a shot (so to speak),  anyway.

4.  Who were his "relatives" at Efenechtyd?

May be a complete red herring,  but . . .



Rol

[JustLooking]

Hi Again

I'm still not convinced of this death and I'd like to see who the informant was before accepting it:

Who was the informant on the cert?

I'd also be interested in the age shown on the death cert. This might help with an identification of a baptism record.

The Chelsea pensioner details should be in the Nat Archives series which is available to check online. I found a few of my ancestors that way. Unfortunately, Thomas Davies is not all that rare a name and from the 6 pages that came up for me, there are a few b. Denbighshire. Lorrae will have to look through the promising ones and see if any look likely:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/searchresults.asp?SearchInit=3

Not sure about the link.


Link doesn't work - I think they might be cookie related - I searched the catalogue from 1790-1850 for a Thomas Davies in WO97 

Added - see below - I've found two possibles

I'm still trying to puzzle out the occupation given for Jane Davies on the 1851.




The index has it as 'Nitting' but I'm not convinced .

Also, maybe we should try to find a marriage for Thomas and Jane? The death cert, itself won't give us much of a clue to his parentage, whereas the marriage might have something - a witness maybe.

The inquest info is usually non-extant, in my experience and all you get is from newspaper reports. I do have access to the old newspapers but am busy for most of the day. I'll try later on to see if there's anything else..

Maybe search Efenechtyd on the 1841/1851 to see if a poss relative can be identified. Added - there are a few possibles

Goodness, Rol, my posts are starting to get as long as yours 


JL

[JustLooking]

I've just checked my Blackwell. The Robert Davies that Heather checked up on was b. 11 June 1833, so the age looks a bit out, although mother is Jane. .  The address is Clwyd Street, which implies that they lived Ruthin..

The 1835 and 1844 Trade Directories list a Thomas Davies, Clwyd Street (boot and shoe maker) so I think we can reject this baptism. 

For info :  there;'s also a Thomas Davies, butcher, in Mwrog Street(Prior Street in 1844) and a Thos. Davies, earthenware dealer,  in Clwyd Street in 1844

I don't have the full North Wales Trade Directories (which can be purchased from Clwyd FHS) and I'm not fond of the online site - http://www.historicaldirectories.org/hd/

 It might be worth checking in those.


JL

[JustLooking]

Hi Again

Just an update on the Chelsea pensioners listings.

There are just two possibles that I can see:

http://www.rootschat.com/links/0bt2/
and
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0bt3/

I've not so far checked for variations of Thomas


JL

[Rol]

Agree with those thoughts,  JL.  Wonder what odds you would give on the man-in-a-ditch story being about the death cert. fellow.  Anyway,  some lines of enquiry to be pursued.  Hope Lorrae will find useful informant info on the cert. -- that would firm up the ID considerably.

... I'd also be interested in the age shown on the death cert. ...

We have "67",  per Lorrae's Reply 32.

Goodness, Rol, my posts are starting to get as long as yours 

  You're just trying to bestir my competitive instincts,  JL!  Afraid I have to be away from the computer for the rest of the day,  but meanwhile I shall put up a good door-stopper as an earnest of my desire to raise my game and graze the 5,500 character limit.

Here are a couple of references that support the notion that those living at Llwyn y Brain (and Bryn Saith Marchog more generally),  although strictly speaking parishioners of Gwyddelwern,  often felt more closely connected with the church and parish of Derwen.  Both sources have the additional merit of providing some intriguing "local colour" -- describing folk traditions and stories that verge on the "gothick".

First,  there is Edward Edwards (1783-1868),  who lived at Llwyn y Brain and so was a near neighbour to Llwyn Mill.  He was an ancestor of Hafina Clwyd Coppack's,   and her research has identified him as a well-known local purveyor of folk remedies and magic spells,  who came to be known as yr Hen Ddewin -- the Old Wizard of Llwyn y Brain.  He was buried at Derwen church and was married to an Ann Dafis (Davies) of of Ty Ucha,  Derwen.  See sub-paras 13 and 14 in this RootsWeb post.

Second,  Owen's Old Stone Crosses of the Vale of Clwyd (1886) tells us about a certain devotee of a local custom that featured skulls and dead sheep,  who was returning "down the road from Derwen to Melin-y-Llwyn" and chanced upon a spectre carrying "a large tree" -- which it portered onwards to the bridge and hurled into the river (viz. just by the inlet to the mill race).  The author forebears to speculate on the purpose of this manoeuvre -- e.g. whether back then the use of spectral millrace-blocking was a notorious anti-competitive practice often deployed against each other by rival Clwydian millers.

MAY EVE AND MAY DAY CUSTOMS.

May Eve was, within the memory of the living, a busy night, for during the small hours after midnight young men were actively employed in letting the fair sex know the extent of their affection for them. If a young lady had jilted or discountenanced a suitor, then he had his revenge by fixing Penglogau, or skull bones, or dead sheep, to the house door of the lady who had rejected his advances; on the other hand the accepted happy swain dressed his sweetheart's door with flowers. Very anxiously did the fair await the dawn of morning, and happy were they if on opening the door they were greeted by a lover's nosegay, but very dejected and irate were they if dangling bones or a man of straw met their eye. This custom was common in most parts of North Wales.

Young men engaged in the uncongenial work of hanging skull bones at young ladies' doors were occasionally punished for their ungallant action by qualms of conscience, and their over-wrought imaginations conjured up phantoms which greatly disturbed their minds, and terribly frightened them.

It is by such a supposition as the preceding that the following tale, told me by the Rev. John Williams, is to be accounted for. Mr. Williams states that he knew a respectable yeoman who told him that he and a companion were once going down the road from Derwen to Melin-y-Llwyn, having been out on May Eve fixing Penglogau at Derwen, when the yeoman observed a man descending the hill before them, carrying on his shoulder a large tree in full foliage, which he threw over the bridge with a great splash into the river Clwyd. His companion did not see the apparition, which immediately vanished; but he heard the splash. But this was not to be wondered at, for it is said that only those born under certain planets can see spirits, whilst noises which they make are audible to ordinary mortals.

Quoted from pp.192-93 of:

Old Stone Crosses
of the
Vale of Clwyd and Neighbouring Parishes,

Together with some account of the
Ancient Manners and Customs and Legendary Lore
connected with the parishes.

(The book can be read online via the Internet Archive site here.)


Rol

[JustLooking]

Missed the age at death of Thomas - it got buried 

I've read through a few of the newspapers around  the dates of death and, so far, only the entry that you found seems relevant. It does look possible. I'll look at more later but reading newspaper s on screen, even with Gale's largest print option, does for ones eyes. I'm not sure that I can read the book ref as well     I think  real books are so much nicer and don't strain the eyes.

I'd forgot about Hafina's pobl pieces. I'll dig out my Hel Achau journals and browse the competition's site.

I think the best thing now is for Lorrae to try to obtain a birth cert for Isaac and/or Mary (aged 2 and 1, resp. on the 1841). Isaac should be easier and you have already found some possible refs. We could then , at least,  know Jane's maiden name.

I've found a possible for David, b.c. 1828 at Haffotty Fawr, married to Ellen/Elleanor Lloyd (RG9/4308/7/8 in 1861)and  son in law to a John Lloyd. He remains there as farmer in later censuse. I'm not sure of this but it's a maybe.

Incidentally, in addition to one of my  Jones lines originating in Gwyddelwern, my Burgess maiden great x3 aunts had their final farm at Craig Lelo



JL

[bonehunter]

Hi JL, Rol ,Heather

Well I wonder if that Thomas that was found in a ditch was mine. 

THe death cert states that he was found dead , his age on the cert is 67 yrs and he died of Intolerance to cold,  the informant on the cert  was F Williams CORONER , Denbigh   the death was registered on the 29th March 1847.

Lorrae

[JustLooking]

I think we need to look at the online newspapers around the March date, Lorrae.

Back in a while - get the tissues handy 


JL

Added - if my eyes go, that nice Rol might look when he's back 

[Rol]

Probably like others,  and 'course being very nice ,  I have now had a supplementary rummage in the 19th c. newspaper database for info about Thomas Davies's death,  extending the search onwards to mid-April 1847;  but the net came up empty.

It strikes me as highly unlikely that the inquest would have been deferred until March,  absent very unusual/suspicious circumstances.  And if such circumstances had existed,  we can be reasonably confident that they would have attracted the press's attention back to the matter.  So my best guess is that the inquest happened pretty promptly in the usual way,  and the report on 19 January reflected the evidence already given before the coroner.  If that hypothesis is correct,  it remains odd that the Chronicle failed to mention the source for its brief para.  And it is also odd that the registration of the death was so long deferred -- was the coroner just too busy with his private practice to keep up-to-date with his county paperwork?

If anyone wanted to try and pursue the matter,  there could be surviving records in the coroner's law firm's archive (at Ruthin RO?).  There may also be some very basic bare facts (at least the date of the inquest) in the Assize records (TNA?);  or maybe post-1830 that material went in with Quarter Sessions (Ruthin RO).  There certainly would have been something of that sort before Wales came into the Assize system in 1830,  because I know that Bryn Ellis of Clwyd FHS and the Montgom. FHS has done a lot of good work using the old Great Sessions rolls at the NLW to extract info from the coroners' expense claims,  which always specified brief details about each inquest.

JL,  those TNA catalogue refs to Chelsea pensioners look interesting.  I think that when you tested the initial link (the one you diagnosed as defective) you might just have found that it would have worked second time round,  i.e. if you had waited a couple of seconds and then re-clicked.  I have no cookie-blocks in place,  but still find that such PROCAT links often fail first time yet nearly always work on second click (first go gets halted at their search screen,  second one drills right on down to the individual piece number).

Anyway,  try this one too (WO97/522/156),  as a test (workings shown):
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATLN=7&CATID=-3943457
I am quite keen on him,  due to his being born at Derwen;  but of course he could be entirely the wrong age.  He was discharged aged 44,  but I cannot deduce the year in which that occurred.  Maybe you know how to tell?

The real solution would be to access his papers online via FindMyPast's much trumpeted WO97 collection.  Their website now boldly states

The Chelsea Pensioners Record Series WO97 is now complete and includes 1,041,092 records. Look out for the WO96 Militia Records, coming soon ...

I am not a subscriber of theirs,  but searching is free . . . and,  of course,  I can find neither hide nor hair of the WO97/522/156 man in FindMyPast's index.  Plus no obvious way to call up his file using his TNA ref.;  hope someone else knows how.


Rol