Author Topic: ROBBY BOY  (Read 21964 times)

Offline JustLooking

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Re: ROBBY BOY
« Reply #45 on: Monday 14 February 11 07:28 GMT (UK) »
Hi Rol

As I read the records,  the age corresponds to the last year stated - well, it did with the three that I acquired. I had to pay £10 for each set of records a few years back.

This would imply that he was 44 in 1828 or so, so born circa 1784. However, looking at the full listings, the end date on FindMyPast seems to be just a terminator for the record series so   ::) ::) ::)

The WO97 series are hidden in the British Army Service Records  1760-1913. I did a wide search but couldn't see our particular Thomas there. They do list birth place, Regiment and year of discharge where stated and no one came up who matched the Derwen, 35 Foot  Thomas Davies.

I then looked at the Davies (variations) listed under Sussex Regiment (35th Foot). These included a James, Charles, George and William John but no Thomas


JL 
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Offline JustLooking

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Re: ROBBY BOY
« Reply #46 on: Monday 14 February 11 07:39 GMT (UK) »
Rol

I've just realised that you must have read my unedited post as I did put a couple of links up that do work.  I've posted this separately to maybe suggest that it's best to read the message posted here rather than via the e-mail link.


JL
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Offline JustLooking

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Re: ROBBY BOY
« Reply #47 on: Monday 14 February 11 07:50 GMT (UK) »
I've just tried one of my ancestors whose info I remember. He's not coming up on the FindMyPast series,  so the early records do not appear to be complete.



JL

Added - another one has come up though - very strange!
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Offline JustLooking

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Re: ROBBY BOY
« Reply #48 on: Monday 14 February 11 09:36 GMT (UK) »
Found  someone in 35th R of F. A different ref no. to yours. This one is WO97/522/174.    I think it is the same one though as his service record corresponds:

Denbighshire Militia  1792-1799
4th Foot 1799 - 1802
Sussex Militia 1800-1802
35th Foot 1807 -  1815 (age 37 when attested)


He was a Cordwainer (maybe the shoemaker from Clwyd Street!) and 5ft 5 ins.

Parish of birth - Derwin in or near the town of Reathen

I'll check on the two that I found now  :)



JL
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Offline JustLooking

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Re: ROBBY BOY
« Reply #49 on: Monday 14 February 11 10:00 GMT (UK) »
1.

Born - Ruthien
? 1st or 81st ? Foot   1801 -1802
34th  Foot   1802 - 1815 or 17 (unclear) - 35 when discharged

Also a cordwainer. 5 ft 8 ins


2.

Born - Denbigh
4th Foot  1799 -1815  - 37 when discharged

A Taylor(sic) . 5 ft 8 3/4 ins

Somehow, I don't feel that any of these three match Lorrae's ancestor.


JL


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Offline Rol

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Re: ROBBY BOY
« Reply #50 on: Tuesday 15 February 11 06:31 GMT (UK) »


Hi JL (and all others still interested),


Excellent news that you have been in to look at the underlying file images from the FindMyPast digitisation project (assume you have a sub, o/wise a bit pricey to go exploring).

Two-part response:

1.  DRY ANALYSIS  (Warning: may induce coma ;))

I think,  as you do,  that the file numbered WO97/522/174 (abstracted in your Reply 48) very likely does relate to the same Derwen man who caught my eye (Reply 44, penultimate full para: WO97/522/156) -- otherwise the degree of coincidence involved would seem highly implausible.  The related FindMyPast index listing for WO97/522/174 is presumably the one that shows the soldier's place of birth as "Reathen, Denbighshire",  with "Derwin" being dropped for lack of space;  while TNA's schedulers opted for the Derwin element instead,  and also elected to normalise the spelling.

Some strange mismatches do come to light when one compares TNA's piece descriptions with the data that emerges from the FindMyPast open-access indexes.  In the case of our WO97/522/174 example,  the scene may well have been befogged by some mis-scheduling at TNA's end.  If you go here (may require two clicks to penetrate the search screen),  you will be surprised to see that TNA's listing ascribes the Derwin/Reathen piece no. WO97/522/174 to one William Dines,  b. Linham,  Kent,  discharged to pension aged 42 (?in 1848) -- who also served in the 35th of Foot.

FindMyPast'S own index does have an entry for a William Dines (b. Kent 1806) who served with the 35th -- so if you have a moment to look,  it would be interesting to know what piece no. is written on the linked images of his papers (and indeed whether those images do relate to Dines).  Best theory for now is that the Dines of Linham and Davies of Derwin/Reathen folders were adjacent in the bundle for the 35th,  and their numbers became reversed in TNA's index.  But there may be more behind the mismatch than meets the eye.  Could TD of Derwin/Reathen have had two surviving files,  due to his period out of both the regulars and the militia between his (presumed) Peace of Amiens demobilisation in 1802 and his return to the colours in 1807?

As background I have belatedly gone back to remind myself of TNA's basic description of the WO 97 class.  This bit is of particular relevance:
Quote
For the period 1760-1854 (WO 97/1-1271) a name index has been produced in a joint project by the Friends of The National Archives and the Army Museums Ogilby Trust. ... Each item record relates to an individual soldier and records their name, any alias names, their place and county of birth (as recorded in the document and thus often mispelt), their regiment(s) and their age on discharge. Covering dates given for these records give the soldier's year of enlistment to year of discharge unless otherwise stated.

So Bold Passage 1 tells us that the indexing was done by volunteers (better than many paid-for outsourcing projects -- but probably not as even in quality as most professional archivists' work).  And Bold Passage 2 does explicitly confirm what we both originally thought,  but I at least had begun seriously to doubt -- viz. that in TNA's index the later of the two "covering dates" should equate to the year of discharge to pension,  and (as you wrote in Reply 45) the ages shown should also relate to that same year.

My supposition is that FindMyPast's indexers were rather too prone to claiming that the ages on the attestation and/or discharge forms were too hard to read,  with the result that large numbers of soldiers are now shown with a "?" in the "Date of Birth" column;  and,  again as you observed in Reply 45,  FindMyPast have not compensated for the resulting blanks by transferring across the "covering dates" for individual items that were used in TNA's own listing project -- merely showing the start-to-end-date range applicable to the whole record series.

As I mentioned yesterday,  it is a great pity that there is no way to call up papers from FindMyPast's image files by using the master piece numbers allocated by TNA.

Anyway ........  where are we left for now?  Next post.



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Offline Rol

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Re: ROBBY BOY
« Reply #51 on: Tuesday 15 February 11 06:41 GMT (UK) »


2.  IMPLICATIONS

Thoughts on our current three candidate soldier-boys:

(a)  TD born Derwin/Reathen -- WO97/522/174  (JL Reply 48)

As discussed in the foregoing post,  we seem to be agreed that this must be the man who is listed as b. Derwen in TNA's catalogue with a different ref.  I note that the attestation aged 37 relates to when he signed up again in 1807,  after a period out of the army (and take it that no DoB info survives from his first attestation or his 1815 discharge papers).

Obviously that age of 37 gives us a rough DoB of 1770,  a full decade too early for him to be the future miller.  But because of that nice Derwen connection I do hate having to count him out completely;  I suppose that my last graspable straw would be the chance that "37" was at some point misheard/miscopied for "27" -- which,  of course,  would land him right on the miller's estimated birth year.

The occupation "cordwainer" in 1807(?) is clearly less than ideal.  But he would not be the first chap to change career after a long period away in the wars -- and Jane could always turn out to have been a miller's pretty daughter.*

(b)  TD born Ruthien -- WO97/517/25   (JL Reply 49,  Candidate 1)

Another cordwainer.

DoB implied by his age 37 at discharge:
  --  if in 1815,  1777-78;
  --  if in 1817,  1779-80.
So if discharged 1817,  a good fit with the future miller.

You evidently feel the discharge date could go either way,  per the image.  Presumably the volunteer cataloguers for TNA's version were working from the originals,  perhaps with benefit of UV light,  so it is probably worth noting that they went for a "covering date" span ending in 1817.

(c)  TD born Denbigh -- WO97/261/15  (JL Reply 49,  Candidate 2)

A "taylor".

DoB implied by his age 37 at discharge:  1777-78.

Age and place a bit adrift -- but not really out of range.



So ................  None of them truly excludable,  but no "clunk-click" fit emerges.  If forced to bet,  for now I am about 80% sold on the man-in-a-ditch being the right fellow -- died of exposure,  inquest,  matching name,  area and date.  Big coincidence if it is not him.

Assuming it is,  I come out about 70% confident that the unqualified word pensioner in the paper was intended to mean Chelsea or Greenwich pensioner:  what sensible rival meanings would be conveyed to a reader at that date?  (Someone be devil's advocate!)

But between the three candidate soldiers,  it is not easy at all.  I would put it as most probably (a) or (b),  with (b) ahead -- on the basis of age-match alone.  But then there remains Greenwich . . .

To prove more,  my first-thought next step would be pension payment records at TNA,  especially to discover how long the pensions remained in payment.  But not had time to go prowling on the website to see whether any suitable documents survive.  Fingers crossed someone has alternative/better tactics to propose.


Rol




* Valentine's Day afterthought: And if the pair happen to have met in 1823 (which might not be much adrift from the reality),  it would indeed have been the perfect life-imitates-art year in which to woo a schöne Müllerin. :)  The sad endings come a bit too close for comfort,  although -- if strictly compared -- life in Gwyddelwern probably yielded some much happier times in the middle.




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Offline bonehunter

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Re: ROBBY BOY
« Reply #52 on: Wednesday 16 February 11 21:47 GMT (UK) »
Hi JL / Rol
Just thought I would update you as to where I am at present.
I went on North wales BMD site in search of Isaac Davies, Robert Davies's brother to try an ascertain parentage.I sent off a couple of forms  to Ruthin Register Office and got a reply today.
 The two I had sent for were no goers, but they kindly sent a form back stating there is a Thomas Davies and Jane Jones son Isaac born 1840 at Llanhaeadr yng Nghinmeirch, it also says that Thomas was a farmer and not a miller as stated on the 1841 census.They also said they could not find a Thomas Davies occ Miller.
What are the possibilities of this Thomas being mine who knows and then on the other hand am wondering whether to purchase the cert  ??? ??? ???
I think I am starting to lose the  plot now and am wondering if Thomas was a Farmer/Miller /Labourer  and also did he fall a ditch or am I on a long slippery slope down the wrong road  ::) ::) ::).

oh well hey  ho off  we go a searchin again  ;D ;D

Lorrae
Davies,Tattum,Evans Thomas,
Humphreys,Jones,Roberts flintshire/denbighshire
 Bassett and Tanser of Leicestershire

Offline Rol

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Re: ROBBY BOY
« Reply #53 on: Wednesday 16 February 11 21:59 GMT (UK) »


Hmm.  Bit of thought needed about that!  Wonder if there is an obvious local marriage to be found . . .   But I doubt it quite means "back to the drawing board".

Anyway,  as you posted I was just about to dispatch the following updated info about "the Soldier's Tale",  so here goes.

To prove more,  my first-thought next step would be pension payment records at TNA,  especially to discover how long the pensions remained in payment.  But not had time to go prowling on the website to see whether any suitable documents survive.   ...

Now had a quick look at TNA's basic online guide to soldiers' discharge and pension records.

Per Section 4.6:  "Out-pensions: payment registers in the UK ...
Before 1842 pensions were paid by officials locally ... and no records seem to survive. In 1842 pensions staff officers were appointed, who made monthly returns to the War Office. They recorded who had moved into or out of the district, whose pensions had ceased, and who had died. If you know the place where an ex-soldier died (for example, from a death certificate) or was living (for example, from a census return), it may be well worthwhile using these registers. ... The registers, in WO 22, are arranged by payment district or country, and give the pensioner's name, regiment, rate of pension, date of admission to pension, rank and the district to which or from which he had moved. ... "

Alternatively,  per Section 6,  there are:  "Regimental registers of admissions to pension ...
These registers (in WO 120) are in several series, covering c.1715-1857, with deaths noted up to 1877. There is a name index for 1806-1836 only ... "

The WO22 payment registers sound like a promising source,  and not too difficult to search.  Lucky that they began just in time to create returns for Ruthin in Jan/Feb 1847.  But as they remain undigitised,  checking them would require a special trip to Kew -- unless some kind person offers to piggyback a lookup onto an already-scheduled visit.

The WO120s could form a safety-net,  but would require inspection of each candidate's own regimental volume for the year of his admission to pension.


Rol




ADDED:
This Sub-Series listing [access may require 2nd click] in TNA's catalogue indicates that the payment register needed is probably WO22/116,  covering returns made from payment stations in "East Wales District" 1842-52 -- always assuming that Ruthin was not grouped under a district named after an English border town,  e.g. Chester District (whose own register for the right period has the piece no. WO/22/19).

There is some interesting supplementary material about the WO22 class to be found in TNA's Your Archives section,  together with an incomplete list of districts and payment stations (unfortunately omitting Wales).  It contains the excellent news that Greenwich Hospital also used the same network of districts and registers to pay naval pensions;  so a search in WO22 would also cover the alternative contingency that Thomas Davies was actually an RN pensioner.

This Rootschat thread of Feb. 2006 provides an example of the really useful information that can be found in these records.


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