John Pole b.1829

[RRYFS]

Hi Sheila

Looks like you've cracked it. Charles d.1813 looks like the father (I had 1811) and Charles d.1833 looks like the son b.1794. On that basis, he definitely wasn't married to Elizabeth Eames, who was having children long after 1833, so confirms she was married to the policeman, which the certificate shows anyway. Now how do you tell someone the direct link in their tree to ancestors born before 1600 is wrong?

Thanks again

Richard

[leicesterpole]

Hi all......

Am new to Rootschat - was just doing some idle Googling which brought me to this thread!

I too have been contacted by somebody (via ancestry this time) with a supposed POLE line right back to the 1600s but I'm also pretty sure she's mistaken. My research had somewhat stalled on the same question of which Charles & Eliza(beth) POLE is which, but the other person on Ancestry just took a guess and 'claimed' whoever fitted her purposes without finding reasonable proof. That's not the way I work!
'My' POLEs are the ones from the St Georges area of Leicester, who I am absolutely certain are linked to the Belgrave and Thurmaston POLEs but I haven't yet been able to establish exactly how and when, though the name Charles Scarborough POLE seems to be very relevant......
 My family history research has been on somewhat the back burner lately, so I don't have all the info to hand, but as I remember it most of my lot were carpenters, builders or associated trades, but also significantly involved in music....whereas the Belgrave POLEs appeared to be mainly Framework Knitters. There was also another branch of POLEs in the Wharf Street/Belgrave Gate area (comes under St Margarets church rather than ST Georges) that appear to have been shopkeepers, but I'm unsure whether these are from my branch or the Belgrave branch!
Sadly, it also appears that all 3 branches were in the habit of using the same christian names generation after generation..........eg Charles, John, Henry, Francis/Frank, Arthur.....etc etc!

My g-g-grandfather was Francis Pole born c1831, son of Charles POLE (a carpenter) and Eliza(beth); however I can't be certain WHICH Charles the carpenter and Elizabeth since there are 2.........and there are also records of 2 Francis Poles being born around that time, but only one of them seems to have lived into adulthood. My Francis married Esther Ann STEVENSON, seems to have had a daughter (who I've not been able to keep track of), and then Francis & Esther moved to Oldbury near Birmingham where they had another 9 or 10 children - most of whom came back to Leicester as they hit their mid-teens. After Francis died, all of the family moved back to Leicester, but by then had somewhat spread out from the St Georges area.

Any suggestions gratefully received.........

Martyn

[RRYFS]

Hi Martyn

Welcome to Rootschat - you will probably find it worthwhile making another couple of posts, as you need 3 to use the PM function, which is often useful.
I am very definitely a "Belgrave" Pole, but like you, I think they are interconnected, and certainly the Scarborough name derives from the marriage of John Pole and Rebecca Scarborough in 1702.
I assume your Francis is in Stamford Street in 1841, lodging with Bingleys in Brunston Gate in 1851, before appearing in Oldbury in 1861 - each time with a different spelling of Pole. Ironically, this thread was started by a contact from a descendant of Francis' brother, Thomas, who believed their parents were Charles Pole and Elizabeth Eames. To my satisfaction, I have disproved this, but at the same time disproved the connection of Charles Pole and Elizabeth Eames with my tree. Yvonne, who I also met on here, kindly gave me a copy of a paper family tree produced in the 1980s by her uncle, who researched the details at the Records Office which takes us back to before 1600. I have produced a database of Poles from the IGI and Phillimores, which all seems to hang together and confirm the details.
The Poles certainly generate a lot of questions, often taking a while to answer - my latest is "Who was Thomas Pole, Coal Merchant at 27 Checketts Road in the 1908 Kellys. In 1891 there was another coal merchant there, and by 1916 my Grandfather, William Wright, Joiner was in occupation." As he was married to my gran, whose father was Thomas Pole b.1840, there appeared to be an easy answer - but "our" Thomas appears to have died in 1903 and was always an FWK!
Just another mystery to solve!

Richard

[leicesterpole]

Hi Richard

Yes, you have the correct Francis (variously shown as Pole, Pola, Pool, and Green!) - at least I think it is. Sadly I can't be absolutely certain due to a marked lack of information about Francis's early life. I need to cross-check the Stamford Street census listing against Charles's will, which I downloaded from the National Archives - but can't currently find my printout and transcription of! Bizarrely, that will was proved at the PCC and I don't understand why, as there was no mention of property other than in Leicester? I do remember that there was a youngest child named Francis mentioned, also sons Henry and John - yet there is no sign of them in that 1841 census listing. Hence my uncertainty!
I think I probably need to have a good sort-out of the reams of printouts I seem to have ammassed - not quite start from scratch, but not far off. It doesn't help that the IGI is absolutely teeming with entries that I eventually realised where less than accurately researched......

Your mention of Yvonnes paper family tree from the 1980s reminds me of something my father mentioned. Apparently, when he was young, his Grandmother Violet Pole (nee GRADWELL) told him that her husband Arthur Thomas POLE had had his family tree/ancestry professionally researched at some point prior to his death in 1927. If only I knew what had happened to those papers! I doubt whether they still exist, sadly.
Yvonne has PM'd me but as you say, I can't reply yet. It might be interesting to compare my notes with that, though, so that I can discount some of the individuals in my rather long list of POLEs to follow up on.

Martyn

[leicesterpole]

Update and......ooooops!!!

Well....I've found the will mentioned above. It's dated 6th September 1827, and it was proved at London on 26th September 1836.
It's the will of Charles Scarborough POLE of Leicester, Carpenter. which is more or less as we'd expect.
It then says       "I give and bequeath all and singular my household goods and Furniture debts And        Personal Estate and Effects unto my dear wife Mary Pole"
which is one of the problems that I mentioned in my first post - Mary not Elizabeth! It also questions whether the family at Stamford Street in the 1841 census is the right one - unless the Charles Pole in 1841 is the son? It's the only Francis I've been able to find that fits MY Francis though.

Then there's something of a twist; Yvonne mentioned that the various Poles tended to stick pretty rigidly within their own trade circle, which would suggest that the executors would be likely to be from the building trade....but no - he appoints Richard Seddon (Lace Manufacturer) and John Toone (Collarmaker) as Executors and Trustees to deal with "All that My Messuage or Tenement with the Workshops Out
Buildings and appurtenances thereto belonging now in my own occupation situate and being in or near Halford Street in Leicester aforesaid and all other my real
Estate whatsoever and wheresoever "
to be held in trust for the benefit of His wife Mary until her death or remarriage and also for
 "my child and children viz William, Charles, John, Jane, Henry, Ann, Eliza, Elizabeth, James and Francis or such of them as shall be living at my decease when and as they shall attain their age or respective ages of twenty one years equally to be divided between them"

So as you can see, the family COULD be the one at Stamford Street in 1841, but could quite possibly not be. Some names fit, but some don't.
Perhaps either your database Richard, or Yvonne 1980s history, may be able to shed a little light and point me in the right direction?

Martyn

[RRYFS]

Hi Martyn

Not easy - one problem is that the Scarborough bit is sometimes transcribed, and sometimes not. I can see Henry (b. St Margarets 18.11.1808), and by deduction, John (b. 08.07.1804), Jane (b.05.09.1802) - all to Charles (Scarborough) and Mary. Charles Scarborough Pole and Eliz have Ann (b.28.01.1811) - is this Charles, the son of Charles and Mary, and named in the will, perhaps? Henry (and Susannah) then have a Charles Scarborough Pole (bp. 01.04.1840 at St Georges). Charles Scarbro Pole and Eliza then have Arthur Charles (bp. 13.07.1851 at St Georges).
Meanwhile, 3 of the Stamford Street children, Sarah, Francis and Thomas appear in the St Georges records. My other contact who claims descent from Thomas says the family went off to London soon after 1841 - as Francis appears as a lodger in 1851, perhaps that is possible. The family are in Marylebone, with Charles (still a carpenter) now married to Alice. Is this Charles, the son of Charles and Mary? All very confusing.
Incidentally, Mary Pole b.1786ish is living in St George St, St Margaret in 1841 with son, James. They are in company with a Wells family.
Can't find any more tonight - I might message my other contact to see what he knows tomorrow.

Richard

[Ajm3212]

Hi
I’m new here, but directly descended from the Belgrave Birstall Poles. Grandmother was Connie Pole whose brother was Walter. I have a photo of the 1880s Eliza Pole and would love to know more about the family tree. I live in Birstall, but grew up in Belgrave after the family lost all their money in a factory fire in the 1920s

[RRYFS]

Hi Ajm3212
Welcome to Rootschat. If you've read all through this thread, its a wonder you're still here. I reread it before replying, and struggle to remember all the details, but it was good to remember "Mike from Leicester" who was so much help to so many of us on here, and sadly died some years ago. Walter (b.1881) in Belgrave was my Gran's younger brother, but I have no record of a Connie. My Gran's parents were Thomas Pole and Eliza Black. Its funny - I had not been on RC for years before yesterday, and then your post triggered an e-mail this morning!

Richard