Heraldry and Arms

[LuRose]

How would I go about enquiring for information on arms registered at House of State in April 1373??  I have two sources for the same Arms and a discrepancy..

I don't know who to ask ..Can y'all reccommend ??

Thanks.

LuRose.

[behindthefrogs]

I am very confused as to which country you are talking about.  I don't recognize the "House of State" to which you refer.

As far as I know coats of arms in England were not registered until king Richard III founded the College of Arms in 1484.  Prior to that there was no standardization of arms.

David

[aghadowey]

I moved the thread from Renfrew, Scotland board.

[behindthefrogs]

Although I know a lot less about Scottish coats of arms I still don't recognize the "House of State".  Details of the Lord Lyon seem to exist back to the 14th century although the post seems to have Celtic origins.  What is not clear to me is when he and his office first established control over the granting of arms as initially he seems to have been involved in approving the clan chiefs.

The register of arms for Scotland starts in the 17th century and I can find no evidence of any earlier register.

You say that you have a discrepancy.  Are you dealing with the arms of the same person?  The cadency system used in Scotland causes standard differences to be applied to the shield of each of the sons.  If you can describe the differences then the relationship, first son, second son etc. can be determined.  In Scotland although as in England arms were individual, members of the clan were allowed to display the arms of their chief.

[LuRose]

Thank you for the kind answer;  This is from the Scottish Arms..if you will indulge me a moment

I need to verify arms granted to an Ochiltree.  I have a number that is on the information as reference.  I need to verify this number to the owner of this set of arms.  It looks like :: (SM 16925/6) dated April 1373.  There is another paragraph that states:  Name changed from Stewart to Ochiltree by Act of Parliament, March 13, 1542.  This is what I need to have verifyed.

Who can I write to in Scotland to get this information ?

Thank you.
LuRose

[Little Nell]

Hi LuRose,

Where do the reference numbers that you quote come from?

From the small amount of detail that you give, I think that this:

Name changed from Stewart to Ochiltree by Act of Parliament, March 13, 1542.

refers to the fact that a Lord Avondale (surname Stewart/Stuart) exchanged this lordship with Sir James Hamilton for the lordship of Ochiltrie and by an Act of Parliament of 1542 was ordained to be styled Lord Stuart of Ochiltrie.  Any standard reference work on the peerage of Great Britain (i.e. including Scotland and Ireland) will contain this information.

Burke's General Armory, while not considered 100% reliable all the time, lists the arms of Lord Avondale/Lord Ochiltree as follows:

Quarterly 1st: Scotland; 2nd: or, a fess chequy azure and argent with a label of three points gules in chief; 3rd: argent a saltire cantoned with four roses gules (for Lennox); 4th: or, a lion rampant gules, for the Earldom of Fife, all within a bordure compony azure and argent.

That's quite a complicated achievement, but there is a picture of it here:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Blason_Andrew_Stuart_1er_Lord_Ochiltree.svg

In this depiction the arms of Scotland are repeated in the fourth quarter, unlike the blazon in Burke. The Fife arms did not have the double tressure.  There are four different aspects of this man's heritage in the quartered shield: the arms of Scotland since he was a descendant of Murdoch Stewart, 2nd Duke of Albany and Regent of Scotland in 1420-24.  Murdoch was the grandson of Robert II, King of Scotland.  The second quarter is the arms of Stewart.  The arms of Lennox presumably since Murdoch married Isabel Countess of Lennox, a title she held in her own right.  Murdoch Stewart also held the title of earl of Fife, hence the fourth quarter. 

Nell

[Little Nell]

The original texts and translations of the Acts of Parliament of Scotland before the union can be searched and read here:

http://www.rps.ac.uk/

The dates on the site do not take account of the old calendar so the act of parliament you are interested in shows as 1543.  It was in the first parliament of Mary's reign.  This confirms the change of name and exchange of lordships.

Nell

[LuRose]

Nell ...Thank yu for this research.  I did go to the Parliment pages but I could not  get the same information to come up that quoted.  I have not searched that site before so I am sure I made an error while looking..  I did not find the information.

The coat of arms I am looking for is for Sir Alan of Ochiltree second son of Sir James Stewart of Innermeath.  they were killed in battle at Halidon Hill in 1333. 

His Arms:

date 1377.
A fess chequy surmounted by bend charged with three goldin buckles.
Crest:  Helmet with a crown or coronet, a horse head, facing to the right. what appeasrs as cloven tongues of fire behind and either side of the helmet.

The lions are either side, are sitting with their left paw on the sheild
.
The Legend in gothic,Alani-Senescalli. 

The dates Register House, 4 APRIL 1373, Acts Paliment Scotland  Morton Ch. AD 1377, Laing 1241 BM 16925/6.

That information is from the Scottish Armorial Seals book...at the bottom of the page that I recieved of the picture of the arms. ::
Legend
Sir Alan Chief Steward to the Royal Household name changed from Stewart to Ochiltree by act of Parliament,  March 13, 1542.

Thanks.
Lurose

[Little Nell]

Hi LuRose,

I have done some more searching and I think I can explain most of the numbers etc.

First of all, the book that you quote (Scottish Armorial Seals) was published in 1904 and was written/compiled following the Edinburgh Heraldic Exhibition held in 1901.  The catalogue which was produced for the exhibition was used as a basis for a work intended to contain "particulars of all known armorial ensigns used in Scotland since their first introduction at the end of the 12th century to the present time."

It used as part of its source material the use of seals as attached to charters and other documents.  These could be accurately dated from the date pf the document and indicate the arms used at that time.

The description you gave is of a seal attached to a document and indicates that the owner of the seal was Alan the Seneschal or steward. The document would appear to be an act of Parliament (a state paper) dated 4 April 1373.  At the time of writing (1904) these Acts of Parliament were kept in the General Register House in Edinburgh.  They are now in the care of the National Archives of Scotland and may still be stored there. 

Another example would appear to be attached to the Morton Charter dated 1377.

Laing refers to Henry Laing who produced a catalogue of seal impressions in the British Museum, in two volumes.  Laing's catalogue number was 1241.  The British Museum's catalogue numbers are(BM) 16925 (attached to the document dated 1373) and 16296 (on the document dated 1377).  A work by Birch (Catalogue of Seals in the Department of manuscripts in the British Museum) has a note under 16296 to say that the Laing catalogue number is not correct.  (Not sure what is meant by that.)

The cloven tongues of fire - that is actually the mantling of the crest.  It is meant to represent cloth!

The Alan who died in 1333 would not necessarily have born the arms of the date 1373 and 1377: these would belong to a later Stewart.  The arms of the 1333 Alan could only be inherited in the same form by his eldest son, and then by his eldest son.  Younger sons had differenced arms and nowadays have to petition the Lord Lyon King of Arms for a version of his father's arms.  Not sure if the same system had developed in the 14th century or whether they followed a convention and adopted a mark of cadency without a petition.

The Alan Stewart who became the first Lord Ochiltree in the 16th century may well have had similar but different arms from Alan who died in 1333.

As regards the site I referred you to before, click on the + marks beside the text in the left hand column until they are all expanded and you can see the sub-entries.

Nell