Richard HARVEY and Margaret CANNING - arrival in Australia

[whiteKat]

Hello again AUSSIERSS1,
It is nice knowing that other people are searching for the same ancestors - the more heads the better one hopes.

I have had a great deal of trouble trying to find Richard Harvey's arrival in Australia. It never occurred to me that he may have come with his parents. I suppose that is a real possibility. I do hope that the arrival on the Duchess of Northumberland is correct.

A  few things concern me however with the 1847 date of arrival:
1. Firstly in the records from the Hospital on his various admissions as talked about above - questions are asked as to length of stay in the Colony and even though the number of years differ in the records none appear to correlate with an 1847 arrival!
2. In 1847 Richard would have been 15. In those times would they have classified a 15 year old as a child as documented on the passenger list for the Duchess of Northumberland? I suppose if he was with his parents that would be so.
3. The name of Edward 'Millet' Harvey worries me a little. Where does the name 'Millet' come from - I can't see it mentioned anywhere else in regard to Edward? Is it a family name?
4. Also on the passenger list there is no mention of Edward's wife's name - can we be sure that it is the right Edward? I am wondering if you have verification of this being the Harveys we hope them to be? I don't want to sound pessimistic but would love to have some verification - I really want it to be them.

As to Margaret Canning I have come up to brick wall really. I can't find much about her anywhere. My mother was of the belief that she came from Ayrshire in Scotland and the marriage entry for Richard and Margaret certainly confirms this. The record says she comes from Dundonald Ayrshire but on 1841 and 1851 census cannot find anything to support this. Richard and Margaret's marriage record claim her parents to be William and Ann.

The only entry for a Margaret Canning in the 1841 census is that of a family with William as father and an Agnes as mother in Kirkkudbrightshire. I suppose an 'Agnes' could well be called 'Ann'. The dates appear correct for Margaret's birth.  I know there was a William Canning in Australia at that time as he was a witness to their marriage. I am assuming this to be brother since an addit has been entered on the side of the record stating that the father had given consent - she was 19 years old at marriage and obviously the father was not present. I also have information as to her death.

And yes Eliza Ann Harvey married George Albert Beyer in 1876 and my grandmother Adelaide Beyer was born in 1883 in Ballarat - their third and last child. It was some time after that that they moved to Sydney - to date I don't know when I am still working on that. In the family talk  i have never heard mention of Eliza's sister Mary Jane - so can't help you there whether she came to NSW or not!

Oh and by the way the John Rowe in the Census I think is Mary's father but have no idea who John Hill maybe.

Well that was a bit of a spiel and hopefully of some help. It would be good to hear more from you about the family if you wish.

Regards
Kate

[AUSSIEROSS1]

 Hi Essie and Kate,
This is really exciting with all this activity regarding my ancestors.
I regret that I will not be able to respond to all your postings tonight but I will do my best for tomorrow, Melbourne time.
Regards,
Ross.
 

[Essie]

Hi Kate and AUSSIEROSS1

These CANNINGs were assisted immigrants to SA in 1851.
http://143.216.32.39/archivessrsa/t1tbmain.asp?MainURL=t1tbdui.asp&FunctionName=$SASABKWDSCH
Official assisted passenger list, 1851
  Canning    Mary 51/12     (wonder if this was meant to be Marg?)     
  Canning    William 51/12 (2)   (= father and son)
51/12 = twelfth ship in 1851 namely the Oregon

http://www.theshipslist.com/ships/australia/oregon1851.htm
Canning William aged 39 Miner from Ayr   
Canning William aged 14 Miner from Ayr
Canning Mary 19 Servant   Ayr   (age is a close match?)

TROVE
South Australian Register <Monday 3 November 1851>
Passengers from the ship Oregon in this report included only a Tom CANNING.  But also a Mary and Wm CUMMING – wonder if someone confused the surname with CANNING??? 

Two W CANNINGs ventured to Melbourne
South Australian Register  Wednesday 31 March 1852
CLEARED OUT. , Tuesday, March 30— The barque Margaret Brock, 245 tons, McMeckun, master, for Melbourne/ Passengers— Mrs. Bayer, Mr. and Mrs. Jeffery, Mr. and Mrs. Rowe, in the cabin;
W. Fenwick, B. and R. Harry, W. C. Canning, W. Canning,  . . . . .

Is this their return to Adelaide?
South Australian Register  <Thursday 16 December 1852>
ARRIVED. Wednesday, December 15— The brig Lord Montgomery, 140 tons, W.  Francis, master, from Melbourne . . . . . . . McKinnon, Canning 2, Brown, Itching, Obroy, Hanningham, Omrood, Woods 2,


Also in TROVE
LIST OF UNCLAIMED LETTERS.—JUNE 30, 1854.
South Australian Register  < Saturday 15 July 1854>
Article ... Campbell, Angus Campbell, Johu Campbell, Margaret Canning,

UNCLAIMED LETTERS, AUG. 31, 1854
South Australian Register  <Tuesday 12 September 1854>
Article ... Cameron, Evan Cameron, J. M. Campbell, Nicol Campbell, Miss Margaret Canning, Mary Canny,

Letters unclaimed because Margaret was by then in Melbourne.

Essie

[AUSSIEROSS1]

 
Hi Essie and Kate,
That information about the Canning family looks rather interesting in particular the unclaimed letters.
I will see if it ties in with what I have on this possible ‘Canning’.

Victorian Index Detailed Result for William Canning Registration Year:1890, Registration Number:14635

William (Senior) Canning – Died Ballarat 2 Nov 1890 age 84 years, born Antrim in Ireland about 1806 and he was married at age 24 years in Ayr Scotland (about 1830) to Ann Greenlees (I think, or it could be Greenless). This is good because on Margaret’s marriage certificate it refers to her saying that her parents were Wm & Ann. It appears that Ann may have died, or the parents split up before he came to Australia as she is not mentioned again. The death certificate says that he spent 39 years in Victoria.
 
William (Junior) provided the names and ages of his siblings for the death certificate. Wm (Junior) became a stockbroker so I believe that the ages would be fairly accurate.  They were:-
Daniel       was 58 years in 1890, (so about 19 years in 1851)
Mary         was 56 years in 1890, (so about 17 years in 1851)
Margaret  was 54 years in 1890, (so about 15 years in 1851 and 18 in 1854 for her marriage).
William     was 52 years in 1890, (so about 13 years in 1851 and 16 in 1854 for the marriage).
Ann, the sister was deceased.

I believe therefore that the ‘William’ who signed the marriage certificate was indeed Margaret’s father because a child would not be acceptable as a witness nor on William Juniors word that the father said he approved of the marriage. It is possible that a letter of approval could have been presented for the occasion but I believe it also would not have been acceptable. Ann the mother was not present so an Elizabeth Mullins signed as a witness. William Canning (Senior) is buried with his son and family in the Family plot in the Ballarat  Cemetery at Area CCN Section 13 Location 1.

Source for the above certificates was:  online.justice.vic.gov.au/bdm/index-search?action... - Cached     

Thanks again Essie for your work.

Regards, Ross.

[whiteKat]

Hi Ross and Essie,
So much information to digest. I can't tell you how happy I am at your sharing of all this information on the Cannings. Your work Ross and Essie is amazing. It seemed I had hit a brick wall with the Cannings but both of you have opened the gate - thank you so very much.

It had crossed my mind that the Cannings could have come from Ireland but I had nothing to support this thought. And it does make sense if times had been tough in Ireland - to cross the water to Ayreshire. One question though is why didn't they appear on a census - ops I think I am now answering that myself - they could have come to Scotland in the interim years between 1841 and before the census of 1851 and then set sail for Australia in 1851!

Also just a quick question on the marriage record - would the minister have written that the father had given permission if he was a witness to and present at the marriage of Richard and Margaret?

In regard to the death certificate of William the senior and the naming of all his children - those other than William and Margaret - were they still in Scotland? I will have to try and obtain a copy of William's death certificate. I now have so many ancestors to visit in the Ballarat cemetery - I am sure it would be quite moving.

It is also exciting (sorry about the frequent use of the word 'exciting' - but it seems to well explain my feelings) having others researching and sharing the same ancestors. It is obvious of course as the Harveys had quite a number of children!

All the information presented seems to fit so very well - do either of you have confirmation as these being the Cannings of our concern - to being our true ancestors? Any family stories handed down? I only wish I had asked my grandmother more questions as to her origins!

Kind regards
Kate

[AUSSIEROSS1]

 

Hi Essie & Kate
Thank you for your postings responding to me, I’m still going through them. According to Richard’s death certificate he died aged 47 years on 26 Aug 1879 that would mean he was born-baptised about 1832, in particular 13 Feb 1832 in St Just in Penwith. I am not overly concerned about the 6 months i.e. 47.5 years old.

1.   Also his death certificate says further that he spent 27 years in Victoria.

2.   The marriage certificate for Richard & Margaret was dated 4 May 1854, and says Richard was aged 22 years old which is consistent with his
                  birth-baptismal year of 1832.

3.   According to the 1841 census Richard was 9 years which is consistent with an 1832 birth/baptism. I believe that Richard would have been classified as a child in the ship’s log. I extracted the abbreviated quotation below by typing into Google: 1847 uk a boy aged 15 be called a child?
A BRIEF HISTORY OF CHILDREN By Tim Lambert.  Children in the 19th Century ………… In the early 19th century parliament passed laws to curtail child labour. However they all proved to be unenforceable. The first effective law was passed in 1833. It was effective because for the first time factory inspectors were appointed to make sure the law was being obeyed. The new law banned children under 9 from working in textile factories. It said that children aged 9 to 13 must not work for more than 12 hours a day or 48 hours a week. Children aged 13 to 18 must not work for more than 69 hours a week. Furthermore nobody under 18 was allowed to work at night (from 8.30 pm to 5.30 am). Children aged 9 to 13 were to be given 2 hours education a day.

4.   Edward Millet Harvey was the father of our Richard Harvey. His father and mother were Samuel and Catherine Harvey.
The following details were extracted from: Source:
https://www.familysearch.org

Edward Millett Harvey
16 Feb 1806St. Just-in-Penwith, Cornwall, England
father's name: Samuel Harvey
mother's name: Catherine Harvey

If you Google ‘Millett of Penpol and Marazion’ you will find that in 1699 Martin Millett of the Millett Family bought Bosavern House in St.Just, Penwith, Cornwall. The Harvey & Millett families were believed to be ‘friendly’ with each other. It was not a Harvey family name. At stages through time some of them lived at Boasavern. I also know that things are not true until proven true.
 
On another point I purchased birth certificates for your grandmother and her sisters, and birth & death certificate for your great grandfather. I also purchased the marriage & death certificate for Eliza Ann Beyer. I had difficulty getting it until you told me the exact year. The reason for this was it had been recorded as Eliza Ann Harvy.

Source for the above mentioned certificates was  online.justice.vic.gov.au/bdm/index-search?action... - Cached
Regards,
Ross.
 
 

[whiteKat]

Hello Ross,
What an absolute wealth of information - again thank you so much for sharing it all with us especially explaining the 'Millet' and 'what age is a child' components. The poor children of that era - labouring so hard and so long - unimaginable to us!

It is after midnight and I need more time to digest the spread sheet. What a lot of effort you have put in - thank you. I will look more closely tomorrow.

Regards
Kate

[AUSSIEROSS1]

 
Hi Essie and Kate,
Regarding the spreadsheet I posted yesterday I made a typing error in the heading.
It should have read conflicting places, rather than conflicting dates. Sorry about that.
The references between 1854-1861 with Dundonald in Scotland and then Dundonald being in Ayrshire Scotland were definitely not correct.
I believe that Kilbarney should read Kilbirnie. I guess the writer merely wrote the name as it sounded when spoken.
I am looking into trying to find out where she was born/baptised using those places provided by the informants. It makes it just a little bit more difficult.
I must log off now. I hope to be back later in the evening. Thanks again for all your efforts.

Regards,
Ross.

[whiteKat]

Hello Ross,
I am a little confused! With the spreadsheet are you referring to where all  Margaret's and Richard's children were born? Or am I interpreting the spreadsheet incorrectly? I understand the dates when the children were born but what are the ages in the column referring to? I do apologise for appearing so dumb - I am really very interested in your determining but feel I am missing something. And Kilbirnie - you mention the informants!Which informants are you referring to?
Thanks so much
Kate