Hodges memorial Bath Abbey

[Kiwicol]

in 1902 a man was asking in a geneaological publication about these arms wanting to know what family they belonged to?

arms Sa., a chev. engr. between three. lions pass, guard, arg.

now if you do a search above for ellithorn it should take you to a photo of the memorial to James Hodges and his wife Anne nee' Ellithorn
But there is no colour on the marble monument so where would he have obtained details of colours?

The arms to the left appear to be those of Hodges, can any one tell me the signifigance of the banner with the crown in it on top left of the arms?
The James Hodges intered here was second son of Sir James Hodges, a Knight, and town clerk of London

[veeblevort]

Hi kiwicol,

A link to your other post: http://www.rootschat.com/links/0c3w/
and the photograph in reply #8.

Hodges arms are in Burke's General Armory (Google books), as
described below. The significance I must leave to the
experts at this board.

Hodges (Lufton and Chinnock co. Somerset; JOHN HODGES
of Lufton b. 1583 son of JOHN HODGES of same place,
grandson of WILLIAM HODGES, and great-grandson of WILLIAM
HODGES of Chinnock. Visit. Somerset 1623). Or, three
crescents sa. on a canton of the second, a ducal coronet of
the field.

I am trying to find a description for Ellithorn.

vv.

[veeblevort]

Oh, forgot to say, there is a convention when
tinctures cannot be used, e.g. in stone work or
black-and white engraving, to use shading lines
which are clear in the photo you have posted.

Argent - plain
Or -dotted
Gules - lines drawn in pale (vertical)
Azure - lines drawn in fess (horizontal)
Sable - combine gules and azure.
Vert - lines drawn from dexter chief to sinister base.
Three others rarely seen, Purpure, Tenne and sanguine/murrey.


In this case, the monumental mason seems to have made a
mistake with the tincture of the crescents, and also seems to
have missed the 't' out of 'multus', thereby referring to a mule.

vv.

[Kiwicol]

Would Sir James Hodges when he was Knighted have then received new arms if he was formerly entitled to any?
How does a book publisher become town clerk of london?
His father apparently was a barber surgeon.

[davidbappleton]

Would Sir James Hodges when he was Knighted have then received new arms if he was formerly entitled to any?
How does a book publisher become town clerk of london?
His father apparently was a barber surgeon.

While it could happen, it is generally unlikely that a person would change his arms upon knighthood.  (For one thing, he'd have to pay the heralds for a new grant of arms.  Why go to that expense when you already have a perfectly good coat of arms?)

For your second question, the temptation is to reply, "In the usual way, I suppose," which, of course, tells you nothing.  The truthful answer is "I don't know,", but it doesn't seem to me all that unusual that a businessman in the city would become the town clerk.

[davidbappleton]

In this case, the monumental mason seems to have made a
mistake with the tincture of the crescents, ...

It is very common for charges (like the crescents here, and, indeed, the coronet on the canton) to not be "hatched" in monumental heraldry.  It's not so much a "mistake," I think, as it may be the difficulty of accurately hatching complex charges without taking the chance of having a bit pop off and then having to redo the entire thing.  As a general rule, if the field and major charges (especially ordinaries and subordinaries) are properly hatched, then the failure to engrave the tinctures of lesser charges does not seriously compromise the identification of the arms.  And identification is, after all, the reason for heraldry in the first place.

Just my two cents worth.

David

[veeblevort]

Something I hoped someone else would comment on, because
I am on shaky ground, is the canton (the banner)
you asked about. I am open to correction, but believe
a canton is used to bear a charge issued as an
augmentation to an existing achievement of arms, for
example in recognition of service to a monarch, or
prowess in battle.

The ducal (three strawberry leaves) coronet does not
necessarily represent nobility in the Hodges family, my
reasoning being that the wreath is missing from the
crest, and the coronet has taken its place, the crest
being simply the crescent issuing from  it. This is just
my theory. Perhaps, in monumental masonry, the wreath
might be omitted deliberately as David has already
explained re the hatching.

vv.

[davidbappleton]

Something I hoped someone else would comment on, because
I am on shaky ground, is the canton (the banner)
you asked about. I am open to correction, but believe
a canton is used to bear a charge issued as an
augmentation to an existing achievement of arms, for
example in recognition of service to a monarch, or
prowess in battle.

A charged canton is sometimes used for an augmentation of arms, but as the song goes, "it ain't necessarily so."  That said, most of the charged cantons I can think of off the top of my head were augmentations of arms.  Still, Papworth's Ordinary of British Armorials has something like eight pages of arms which are nothing but the field and "on a canton" one or more charges, most of which are not augmentations.

The ducal (three strawberry leaves) coronet does not
necessarily represent nobility in the Hodges family, my
reasoning being that the wreath is missing from the
crest, and the coronet has taken its place, the crest
being simply the crescent issuing from  it. This is just
my theory. Perhaps, in monumental masonry, the wreath
might be omitted deliberately as David has already
explained re the hatching.

The coronet here (the one beneath the crescent crest, not the one on the canton) is frequently called a "crest coronet."  It is simply a substitution for the more usual wreath (or torse).  I doubt that the mason would have made this substitution; a wreath is much easier to carve than a crest coronet.  But the use of a crest coronet is not at all unusual to find in use.

David

[Kiwicol]

Just sent an email to College of Arms, but expect it wil cost an arm and a leg to find out anything from them.
Thanks for all your imput.
Colin