William CARR

[SherlockBones]

@JM

Thanx for the heads up. Greatly appreciated

Jon

[majm]

Jm
     There  question of who William Carr was is still mystery. To my knowledge no trace him
has ever been found here or in England. But some one calling  himself William Carr was in Rockhampton in 1865. He is mentioned by that name in Ann Norah Harts(Gates) obitutary
printed in the Mornring Bulletin(Rockhampton) on 7/11/1865. On 12/11/1865 an article
headed  Royal Dane List, the last survior he is mmentioned again . The writer was a man
named Pattison who wrote under the name"Battler". I researched him and found that
his father had been a butcher in Rockhampton in 1863, before Carr arrived. So it would be
safe to assume that :Battlers father must have known him ipersonally. The website is
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article54974681. Another mystery to sole if i can.

                                                                                         Regards
                                                                                                     Peter

Peter, something is amiss.

The article you are referring to as Ann Norah GATES obit, well it could not have appeared in any newspaper in 1865.  She died in 1936 and her death was registered in Qld.   

May I quote from the 1936 Obit   ".... Bill Carr  was a noted early day butcher, but who went North in the seventies and for many years ..... "

So, according to the writer ("Battler") of that 1936 Obit,  Bill Carr was not in FNQ until the 1870s. 

Do you have Ann Norah HART's  d.c. ?  The Qld BDM online index gives the reference as C3335. 

Cheers,  JM

[majm]

My great great grandmother  Nora ann Gates arrived on the Royal Dane at Keppel
Bay Queensland Australia 25/7/1865., Her obiturary states that her married sister
came on rhe same ship with her husband William Carr. The only problem is that
no one can find any record of a marriage between a Gates and william Carr in
english  records. Can some one solve this mystery?

                                                                     

Peter, something else is amiss.   

I have now read, RE-READ, and read again ..... the Obit from http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/54974681 Morning Bulletin 12 September 1936 and I cannot see where it states that Nora Ann GATES's married sister came on the same ship as Nora.    Also I cannot see where that same obit says that Nora's married sister's husband was William Carr or that William Carr was also on that voyage.   In fact, the Bill Carr who is mentioned in that Obit is not referred to as being married, or being on that voyage.   

Have you read the pre marriage notice that appeared in the Morning Bulletin  3 May 1944 http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/56306726 ..... in what way would the bride be connected to Mrs Harry HART?


Cheers,  JM
 

[SherlockBones]

JM - An earlier OBIT.....From The Morning Bulletin Monday 7 September 1936

A. N. HART
Death of Old Identity
"Another link of the chain of Rockhampton's earliest pioneers was severed on Saturday with the passing of Mrs. A. N. Hart in her ninetieth year. A former well known midwifery nurse, Mrs. Hart saw Rockhampton and several of its prominent, citizens grow from their infancy.
The mother of 17 children [11 of whom pre-deceased her], Mrs. Hart had 42 grandchildren and more than 20 great grandchildren.
A far greater number however, felt the care of her loving hand, for during her 40 years activity as a midwifery nurse, she assisted in the bringing into the world of 1125 babies.
Born in London on November 7 1847, Ann North Gates, at the age of 18, arrived in
Rockhampton with her married sister and the latter's husband (Mr. and Mrs. William Carr) by the Royal Dane, the vessel anchoring in Keppel Bay on July 25, 1865"

The article is incorrect inthat she had 17 children, as, after extensive research there appears to only be 13 from two marriages. These 13 children tie in with the death cert of her husband who died 29 years prior to Ann.

Clearly Margaret and her husband were travelling under assumed names. Problably because of her husband's prior marriage.

Jon

[majm]

Thanks for sorting that out Jon.  Yes, clearly these were assumed names, and there's not really any mystery still to be solved.  As you have noted, there's other "factoids" in the article that can be disproved. 

Cheers,  JM

[pwh]

The Anne Norah Hart in the  3/5/1944 notice is my  mother, Ann Norah Harts(Gates)
grand daughter.

                                                               Peter

[pwh]

A trip to my local library revealed among other things that  William Carr(Joseph Keeling?)
made at least two voyages to Sydney. The first was on the 18/12/1851. He returned to
Sydney on the James Patterson , leaving  Rockhampton on 25/8/1867. Whether he returned
to Rockhampton is as yet unclear.

                                                               Pwh

[SherlockBones]

Peter
Long post & am throwing a cat among the pigeons here..!

Did you ever find\obtain a copy of the shipping manifect to see who was actually listed on the Great Dane on the voyage out?
The reason I ask is that I have been going thru some records I had sent you and aside from the numerous mentions of William and Margaret Carr, in either obits or court cases to do with bigamy, we also have numerous mentions during this period of Joseph Keeling, from: -

The Brisbane Courier Friday 27 July 1866
The under mentioned IMMIGRANTS, per Royal Dane, who arrived in this Colony in July, 1865, are requested to forward their respective addresses to the Immigration Office, viz:
John Drew, James Hancock, James Eussou, G. Godfrey, William Edwards, John Kane, James Sullivan, James Kimo, Alfred Wainwright, Thompson Hollingsworth., John Moore, James Howorth, Joseph Keeling, John Willies, and William Pearce.

Then there are stealing charges against him in 1867 as well as a drunk and disorderly, as well as an abusive language against Joseph Keeling butcher in 1870. There is also an unlawful wounding against him by his common law wife? Jane in the same year.

Then in 1873 we have Williiam Carr advertising for 6 good mutton butchers.

All is quiet until 1889 when Joseph Keeling applies for crown land to grow grapes near Mount Morgan in central Queensland.

I thought I had this sorted with Mr. and Mrs. Wm Carr being aliases used by Margaret and her husband, due to the fact that William was currently still married. However, the newspaper report from July 1865 would seem to indicate that Joseph Keeling was the actual passenger on the voyage out. No mention of Margaret his wife though.

Could they have changed their names just AFTER they arrived in Rockhampton?
Could, AFTER this couple separated, William Carr reverted to his real name of Joseph Keeling?

If so then why advertise for butchers under the name of William Carr in 1873?
There is a break between 1873 until 1889 when Joseph Keeling is back in the area. Certainly enough time to head to Townsville to run the meatworks up there.BUT, under the name of William Carr?

Is it possible there was a Joseph Keeling as well as William and Margaret Carr on the voyage out? A VERY long shot, but just putting it out there!!

Still a lot of work to be done to sort this out.

[majm]

Hi there,

From Auckland into Sydney on 2 August 1859 there is a Mrs and Mrs KEELING with a child, on the vessel Moa.
http://mariners.records.nsw.gov.au

So there could well be several families with the surname KEELING in the colonies in the 1860s.

Also, there was a Captain William CARR in 1851, his vessel was the Oriental and the July-Sept 1851 voyage from Batavia into Port Jackson saw his wife accompany him.  I doubt he would become a butcher in FNQ in the 1870s.

Cheers,  JM