William CARR

[majm]

jm,
    I do have Ann Norah Harts dc.It shows her parents as Robert Gates and Bridget Bolin.
It confirms the first marriage to Edward Green in Rockhampton in 1868, and the second
marriage to Henry Hart , also in Rockhampton the following year.. It says she had six
surviving  children from the second marriage,
                                               Joel Benjamin  62
                                                Alfred Usher   58
                                              William  Henry  54
                                               Edward  Nathan  50
                                                 Henry christofer  48
                                                 Magaret  Isabel   48
But it goes on to say that she had a deceased daughter from the first marriage. That would
be Ann Sabina Lawson(Green) who died 4/9/1921 in Rockhampton aged 52.Then it says
that there were nine deceased sons and one deceased daughter from the marriage to
Henry Hart. The deceased daughter would have to be Amy Cumerford(Hart), who was left
five shillings in the will.It appears she was a madam in Sydney, dying there shortly before
Anns death. Another son Robert Francis who died 30/10/1931 of spyhilis was also left
five shillings. Since the will is dated 27/4/1931, the deaths of those other  children
would have to  have occured before then. Not all of the alledged 17 children have been
documented. The only thing that might account for them is that they were stillborn or
died in infancy.                                                                  Peter
     

Hi there,

I am not sure why you are posting this information on your William CARR thread, but :

Is it possible that the elusive children were NOT Ann Norah HARTs children by birth, but perhaps Margaret Sabina GATES may have been their mother, or perhaps they were children born to Ann Norah's patients ? 

 On the other hand, does the dc read "nine" as a word, or as a number?   How reliable was the knowledge of the informant on Ann Norah HARTs d.c.  .... remember that if a family member, then he/she would be grieving her loss and may have mis-understood the question, and of course, the person recording that information may also have mis-understood his/her own notes taken during the preparation of the pro forma for the d.c.   

For example, I am aware of one d.c. from pre WWII in my own tree, where the document at first reading seems to indicate 14 deceased children to the person who had died.  It turns out there were FIVE and not fourteen ..... it was one male and four females,  ie 1 4  (1M 4F) .

Cheers,  JM

[SherlockBones]

The report of Ann having 17 children, I believe is an error, [the actual number being 13; one to Green and 12 to Hart)

If we look at Hyam Henry's death certificate we see that Hyam died some 29 years prior to his wife Ann. The correct number of children, both living and deceased, is noted on his death certificate at 12, and further the informant was his son Joel who I believe would have know what siblings he did and didn't have. Additionally this information would have presumably been confirmed and or provided by his mother at the time.

Additinally on the birth certificate of Ann's last child, Margaret, the correct number of children both living and deceased is again confirmed at 12 for this marriage to Hart. The informant is none other than Ann Norah Hart (Gates) herself. Surely a mother would know how many children she did and didn't have.
   
The informant to Ann's eventual death was H D Hart, grandchild. Given that the informant was 2 generations away from the original births and death I believe this to be an error on the part of HD Hart in providing the information or alternatively the information was incorrectly recorded by the reporter at the time. 12 children; no more no less.

[majm]

Hi Jon

I hope you know I consider that your post provides conclusive evidence: 1 child from first marriage and 12 from second.  Obviously the grandson's info should not ever be considered as accurate as the info given by Mrs Hart on that bc or on Mr Hart's dc given by their son when Mrs Hart was still very much alive. Peter has Ann Norah's dc so all he needs to do is decide if he wants to verify your post by purchasing either or both the dc for Mr Hart or the bc for the youngest Hart child.   

Cheers JM

[Gailmuir05]

Debra

Margaret died as a Phillips? Is ther any trace of the marriage?

Jon

Great Work Debra.   I wonder if there is anything in this. (The pram perhaps) Though is it is the same woman she seems rather more respectable than we have previously seen. (Ah Just seen Debra's Electoral Roll entry for Edward Phillips - gentleman)

Police Gazette 23 Sep 1885

MARY O'SHEA is charged, on warrant, with stealing a child from Margaret Greenough, 101 Flinders Street East, Melbourne, on the 21st instant. Description :-Irish, about 26 years of age, about 5 feet 2 inches high, very stout build, dark complexion, brown hair, long nose ; wore a black cloak ; lisps when speaking ; no better description. The child's name is Margaret Alleyne. Description:-4 years of age, stout build, tall for her age, fair complexion, short brown hair ; wore dark small-plaid dress, a holland pinafore with red trimming, striped stockings, lace-up boots, and dark-plush felt hat ; calls herself Maggie Phillips. The child belonged to complainant by adoption.-0.5574. 22nd September 1885.

Police Gazette 7 Oct 1885

MARY O'SHEA has been arrested by the Nhill police for stealing a child from Margaret Greenough, and the child has been recovered.- 0.5574. 3rd October 1885.

Seems Mary O'Shea was the girls birth mother.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/18876027?

Cheers Kris  

Hi there ,I am the great grandaughter of the little girl who was kidnapped.  She was born Margaret Eileen O'Shea, Mother Mary O'shea, on the 29/7/1881. Margaret Sabina Greenough Gates Adopted her(unregistered of course). Margaret married Edward Nathan Phillips on 1st December 1887 in Moama NSW. Reg #1887/005965. They lived at 68 Osborne street Sth Yarra. Edward Nathan Phllips was a businessman at the Fish market, where the Flinders street station clocks now are in Melbourne. They were financially very well off owning many peices of real estate. I do have a photo of Margaret Sabina Phillips, Edward Phillips, the adopted daughter Margaret eileen, with her husband Horace Percy and my grandfather nathan Percy as a baby. I have copy of Margaret Sabina Greenough Gates Phillips Will and testament. She is buried at Fawkner cemetry, not with her last husband as he is in the Jewish section. She left money to her sister in Queensland, a Mrs Ann Hart. And income from her investments to an Ethel Crush. I hope this all helps with your story, as she is not my blood line. However my Great Nanna only knew her as her mother.

[SherlockBones]

Hi there ,I am the great grandaughter of the little girl who was kidnapped. 

Gail

I would very much like to get my hands on a copy of the photos you mentioned. To pass on personal information like email addresses etc we have to use the PM (personal message) facility and to use that you need to have three posts. If you reply to this that will be two. Just need one more after that.

I look forward to hearing back from you.


Jon

[Gailmuir05]

Hi there ,I am the great grandaughter of the little girl who was kidnapped. 

Gail

I would very much like to get my hands on a copy of the photos you mentioned. To pass on personal information like email addresses etc we have to use the PM (personal message) facility and to use that you need to have three posts. If you reply to this that will be two. Just need one more after that.

I look forward to hearing back from you.


Jon

[Gailmuir05]

Hi there ,I am the great grandaughter of the little girl who was kidnapped. 

Gail

I would very much like to get my hands on a copy of the photos you mentioned. To pass on personal information like email addresses etc we have to use the PM (personal message) facility and to use that you need to have three posts. If you reply to this that will be two. Just need one more after that.

I look forward to hearing back from you.


Jon

Hi Jon I am happy to send you a copy of the photo I have of Margaret greenough gates Phillips and Edward Phillips.with their adopted daughter Margaret and her husband with their two children, one being my grandfather.
Sorry I have taken so long to reply.
Regards Gail