Emma WARREN? Emma HEATH?

[suzard]

The Richard Warren with her in the 1871 Census at the workhouse I thought to be her father in law.  I have found him in the 1861 Census with his wife Ann surname unknown at a private house at West Hinton age 60 (born Hinton Parva) Ag Lab, wife Ann born Bishopstone age 70.
What I am trying to work out is, Is Emma Heath, then Emma Warren, then Emma Hazell?
Also why was Richard Warren in the Workhouse in 1871 whilst his wife was still alive?  She is deceased by 1881, as Richard is described as a widower.

Thanks for info, would welcome any input.
regards Trish

Richard Warren's wife Ann was older than Richard.

I believe she died before 1871 and Richard has been described as "Married" in error

Ann is not to be found in 1871

this looks a possibility for her death

Ann Warren
age 77
Dec qtr 1867
Highworth
5a 6

Suz

['Trish']

Let me see if I have this straight,  Eliza surname unknown was married to someone called Warren and had James b1836 & Emma B1839.  Eliza then went on to marry James Frampton and had sons Jacob b1836 & John b1850.   Emma was a lodger in 1861 of William Warren who she then went onto marry (even though big age difference) in Jun q 1861 Highworth.  William died 1870 Highworth, the couple had 4 children, Rose Warren b Jun a 1874 Stratton St Margaret being one of them.
Emma then married William Hazell in 1876 Highworth, he died Jun q 1879 Highworth.
Emma then Warren in 1871 found herself with her children in Swindon & Highworth Workhouse with a Richard Warren, relationship unknown.   But in 1881 she was living at a Private House in Stratton St Margaret as a Laundress with her children.
Questions, who was Richard Warren? was he William Warren's father?  And who were the children that Rose adopted, family legend says they were the children of Thomas, her brother and his wife who both died? 
Family legend says that the two children - a boy and a girl.  The girl may have been Connie Creighton (maybe the girl or child of the boy and girl?) tv star.
Regards Trish

['Trish']

What I have just realised is, Alice, Ann & Thomas could have been William Warren's children, but Rose was born 1874, that is 3/4 years after he died.  So Emma Warren nee Heath/Frampton had a child who could have been William Hazell's, but most probably not as they didnt marry until 1876.

Mmm!
regards Trish

[suzard]

Let me see if I have this straight,  Eliza surname unknown was married to someone called Warren and had James b1836 & Emma B1839.  Eliza then went on to marry James Frampton and had sons Jacob b1836 & John b1850.   Emma was a lodger in 1861 of William Warren who she then went onto marry (even though big age difference) in Jun q 1861 Highworth.  William died 1870 Highworth, the couple had 4 children, Rose Warren b Jun a 1874 Stratton St Margaret being one of them.
Emma then married William Hazell in 1876 Highworth, he died Jun q 1879 Highworth.
Emma then Warren in 1871 found herself with her children in Swindon & Highworth Workhouse with a Richard Warren, relationship unknown.   But in 1881 she was living at a Private House in Stratton St Margaret as a Laundress with her children.
Questions, who was Richard Warren? was he William Warren's father?  And who were the children that Rose adopted, family legend says they were the children of Thomas, her brother and his wife who both died? 
Family legend says that the two children - a boy and a girl.  The girl may have been Connie Creighton (maybe the girl or child of the boy and girl?) tv star.
Regards Trish

I think you have it correct

Emma Heath married William Warren in 1861
at the time of the 1861 census Emma was lodging with William Warren but her name was entered on census as Emma Frampton -probably because her mother had remarried to a Frampton.
Emma and William Warren had 2 children b within marriage - Alice Warren and Ann Warren. It is very possible that Emma was pregnant when William died -and so Thomas Warren is the child of Emma & William Warren

By the time of the 1871 census widowed Emma Warren (nee Heath) was in the workhouse with her 3 children -Ann, Alice and Thomas. Also in the workhouse at the same time was Richard Warren who was entered as Married , but it seems in fact he was a widower. He may be unrelated to William Warren - or (going by his age) he could possibly have been the brother of William Warren. No proof or reason to think that he was .
Widowed Emma Warren then had a daughter Rose in 1874 who would be illegitimate. From Rose's p.o.b. it looks like she may have been b in the workhouse - her birth cert would be needed to prove/disprove that.
Emma Warren (nee Heath) married William Hazell in 1876 - he may have been Rose's father - but maybe not.
The family tale of Rose being the daughter of the Salisbury station master may be true -or could have been embellished slightly. After William hazell's death Emma did have a railway labourer lodging with her - so there may have been some connection with the railways - but maybe not - lots of widows took in Lodgers for extra money - and there were always railway workers looking for  lodgings
It doesn't look like Rose had any children of her own - but she didn't have children living with her in any census.

I'll check on the children Thomas Warren had - so do you think Connie Creighton was Thomas'daughter???
If she is the Connie Creighton who was a voice on the Sooty show then she was b. c. 1935- so Thomas would have been c. 65 yrs old when she was born

Was Connie Creighton her married name or stage name???
Of course you really need a few certificates to have documented evidence that this is correct


Suz

['Trish']

Hi thanks for that, just another thought however, Connie was born in Poole, so maybe it could have been Connie's mother or father that Rose adopted.  You are quite right Rose never had any children.  Family legend says the children of Rose's brother was adopted and family legend can sometimes be wrong maybe the children were of Rose's sisters Ann or Alice?

thanks again for all your help

regards Trish

[suzard]

wonder if this is Connie's birth reg??

Constance S Creighton
Mother's maiden name Owen
Sept qtr 1934
Poole
5a 339

Suz

[youngtug]

This may not help, but you may like to have it. From the South Marston parish register;

 William Warren. aged 70years. buried 21? aug 1909.
 William Warren,aged 72 years buried 19 feb 1869.
 Henry Warren aged 3 weeks buried 17 mar 1871.
 Edwin Warren aged27years buried 28 nov 1867.
 Amy Warren aged 52 years buried 13 may 1860.
Mary Ann Warren aged8 years buried 25 apr 1881.
 Jane Warren aged29 years buried 8 oct 1875.
Arthur,son of Ann Warren, bapt, 1 sep 1867.
Edwin, son of William & Martha Warren, bapt, 12 may 1863.
Eliza, to Charles & Jane Warren, bapt, july 1872.
Henry son of Charles & Jane Warren, bapt, 26 feb 1871.

Also; Martha Warren 8Oyears old buried ... Sevenhampton, highworth.

Sevenhampton is maybe a mile away from South Marston in a straight line across the fields, the road is 2 or three times as far.

I just picked these up as I was searching the South Marston records for my own research. There where Warrens living in South Marston in the 1950s

['Trish']

Many thanks regards Trish