Astwood Possible Flute Timms Connection

[johnP-bedford]

We've established that John & Deborah Timms had son Richard 1790 & daughters Harriet & Caroline 1805.

A James Timms (born around 1816) whose father was Richard, married Mary Virgin in 1839 & they produced Ann in 1843.

A Richard Timms married Elizabeth Hallworth at MM on 11 May 1815; he COULD be the son of John & Deborah; & he COULD be the father of James. 

A Richard & Elizabeth Timms were baptising children at Marston Moretaine between 1820 & 1833, including James on 4/11/1832 (this surely is not the James who married Mary Virgin) & Mary on 12 Oct 1828.  I have found Richard & Elizabeth & daughter Mary on 1851 census, & again on 1861 when he is a widower & daughter Mary is now Mrs Thomas Mills who she married in 1859.
Richard is born 1794 either Marston or Salford, & his death index is Mar 1881 at age 88.

However I have not found a baptism of James to a father Richard dated 1810-1820, & there is no definite records to prove that Caroline is Anne's aunt

[janan]

Hi vivijune and John

I agree with what you say, John, about the information collected so far, but would suggest that the James baptised 4/11/1832 parents Richard and Elizabeth could be the one who married Mary Virgin  in 1839 and thus likely father of your Ann - one of mine was baptised age 16 but there is no mention of his age in the PR ( I know he is the right one from other sources).

A little more info

There is a likely burial for Deborah Timms age 55 in Ampthill 4 Jan 1829

and John Timms 82 in Marston Moretaine 13 Sep 1841

John Timms 85 born in county  is in Ampthill Union Workhouse in 1841 listed as pauper of Marston
HO107/6/4/4 Pg4

Jan

[johnP-bedford]

Hi Jan,  I did see the burial of Deborah Timms at Ampthill in 1829 aged 55; but that makes her born 1774 - so she'll be only 12 when she & John baptised Daniel in Astwood in 1786. So I discounted her  - especially when I found baptisms of children at Ampthill of James & Deborah Timms between 1805 & 1811

[janan]

Hi Jan,  I did see the burial of Deborah Timms at Ampthill in 1829 aged 55; but that makes her born 1774 - so she'll be only 12 when she & John baptised Daniel in Astwood in 1786. So I discounted her  - especially when I found baptisms of children at Ampthill of James & Deborah Timms between 1805 & 1811

Whoops

I wonder what happened to Deborah wife of John? Also I can't see a marriage for them, guess it could be in Bucks?

Jan

[vivijune]

Thank you for the time you've spent supplying so much detail on Timms parent possibilities. I just looked at the calendar and it's just over a month since I started tracing my family in earnest. I've learned a lot on my own and from this Board but just going through your thought processes is very very helpful. Now we've gone back far enough where we are relying on baptismal records I can see that baptisms could occur any time through childhood and not be reflective of a birth date.

You mention a John Timms in the workhouse at Ampthill in 1841. I've read as much as I can on line regarding that Workhouse, as well as the Ampthill Riot that took place after new poor laws were passed in the 1830's and a studious analysis (also on line) that looked at the decline in livelihood for ag lab families in 17 surrounding parishes. But it would seem that workhouses improved so that by 1881 they were more likely to be not only for the destitute but for the old and infirm? I don't mean to digress but it would be useful to me to have the link to Amphill Workhouse where it shows the actual record of why people were there. I'm eager to look at 1880- 1895. Would welcome your input on this seperate subject of workhouses. All fascinating stuff. 

[janan]

Hi

Your best bet would be to contact the Bedfordshire and Luton Archives to see if they hold the sort of records you are looking for

http://www.bedfordshire.gov.uk/CommunityAndLiving/ArchivesAndRecordOffice/ArchivesAndRecordOffice.aspx

They are very helpful

Jan