FRANCIS WARREN b Bedford St Paul abt 1775 - who were his parents??

[kiwicatz]

This man is my 4th great grandfather. He was born abt 1775 at Bedford St Paul, married Catherine Purton 26 Jan 1800. I don't know if there were siblings, the IGI listing states his birt as abt 1775, his marriage as above, and his death as 20 Jun 1839, but says the record was submitted by a member of the LDS Church. If I look in Hugh Wallis site, I can't find him at all. His wife's entry on the IGI is the same abt date for birth in 1779, date of death and marriage - all info submitted by member of LDS Church.
Any suggestions as to where I go from here?
Thank you.
Jan Moon
Pottsville NSW Australia

[johnP-bedford]

I was looking at what's on the IGI against parish registers. Well the marriage is correct on 12 Feb 1800 at Bedford St John, where the PR entry says that Francis Warren is from Bedford St Paul. The list of children up to end of 1812 tallies; all baptised in Bedford St John except that the first one, James, was done on 1st June 1800 & not Jan as the IGI has. The 2nd child Thomas was buried on 10 Mar 1802 infant

Wife Catherine Purton's baptism is found in Bedford St John on 3 Nov 1776, daughter of Thomas & Ann Purton.

However in answer to your query I have no information. There is no baptism of Francis Warren or any other Warrens in Bedford St Paul or St John for 1775 +/- 10 years. There were baptisms of Warren children in Bedford St Peters in that timeframe to Robert & Mary  & to John & Frances.

As to burials; to check out what the IGI has aginst the PR would mean, for me, a trip to Beds Archives. There is no death index for Francis Warren in 1839 so I don't know how he was buried in that year. Similarly there is no death index for Catherine Warren in 1852 & if it was then, surely we'll find her on 1851 census, which I cannot. The NBI has burial of Francis Warren at Bedford St Paul on 22 Feb 1837 aged 67 (=1770) & of Catherine Warren at Bedford St Mary on 4 Aug 1847 aged 73 (=1774). A Cathrine Warren b 1776 plus a James Warren b 1801 are found living at Priory Street, Bedford St Paul on 1841 census. 

[kiwicatz]

However in answer to your query I have no information. There is no baptism of Francis Warren or any other Warrens in Bedford St Paul or St John for 1775 +/- 10 years. There were baptisms of Warren children in Bedford St Peters in that timeframe to Robert & Mary  & to John & Frances.

JohnP, what distance are we talking about between say, St Paul and St Peter, were they places or just churches? And do English families at that time have a naming pattern for their children? Catherine and Francis's 2nd child (born and died 1802) and fifth child (1812-1869) were both Thomas - so perhaps after her father? Other boys names were James and Charles - so is it likely that one of those names was Francis father? They had one daughter named Sarah, not Catherine's mother but perhaps Francis?
Francis was my 4th great grandfather, and Thomas b 1812 was my 3rd great grandfather. Thomas married Ann Baskerfield 28 Jun 1835 at Bedford St Mary. They had 4 children Charles, Sarah, George and James. Sarah, b 1835, was my great great grandmother - her son Frederick was born in 1851 when she was 16, and he was illegitimate. It took me years to find him. Sarah was on the 1841 and 1851 census, but I can't find her after that. Her mother, Ann Baskerfield, was born abt 1815, Bedford - she is with the family in 1841, 1851, 1861, but I can't find her after that. I have never found a death for her, and never found any parents. Would the PR of her marriage mention her parents, do you think? I found a death in 1869 in Middlesex which may be Thomas - only because the birth date is abt right. Other 'clues' I have is that Frederick's first 2 sons were Charles (my grandfather) and Thomas. I've never been able to find Frederick in 1861 and 1871, but think that he may have ben in Middlesex by 1871 as he married Alice Stevens in Clerkenwell in 1874.

Maybe I've got everything I'm going to find? Frustrating, though! Oh to live in UK  (Australia's too far away)
Thank you for your interest.
Regards
Jan

[johnP-bedford]

Bedford has a number of parishes, each with its own church. Going North to South we start at St Peter's, then it's St Paul's; crossing the river we reach St Mary's  & further on its St John's. I reckon from St Peter's to St John's it's no more than a mile & a half. If we carry on, just less than another mile perhaps we reach Elstow. I tell you this, because it's in Elstow I find the only other Francis Warren that baptises a son Francis. However that is back in 1721. I don't know what happened to son Francis; did he marry ? &  have a son Francis ?  who then had his son Francis ? I am speculating - no evidence.

[johnP-bedford]

I have found a Francis Warren referred to on an unusual census of Bedford St John's from 1830 -1836. Take the link, enter name = Warren & reference = P88/25/4. There are a no.of hits regarding the Welbourns Charity Account book.

http://apps.bedscc.gov.uk/bedsccis3/search.aspx

I notice entries for Francis Warren, in St Johns, say "himself" while other entries note if there is a wife or children. So if he is on his own then is he the husband of Catherine or not, or perhaps the father of Francis. The entries stop at 1836, so most likely this is the one buried 1837.

[Orpheus]

I wonder whether your man is the one baptised at Wootton on 10 Dec 1773 to James and Elizabeth WARREN.  James WARREN married Elizabeth GURNEY at Wootton on 16 Apr 1765.  Their family is as follows:

3 Nov 1765  Elizabeth
21 Jun 1767  Rebecca
18 Jun 1769  Mary
24 Feb 1771  James
10 Dec 1773  Francis
30 Apr 1780  Thomas
21 Oct 1781  Ann
12 Jan 1785  Sarah
28 Sep 1787  Thomas
28 Jan 1791  Samuel
15 Jan 1793  Catherine

The will of a James WARREN, yeoman of Wootton, was proved in 1807 and it is possible that he is the father of the above children.  Perhaps he mentions the whereabouts of his children.  Also, the will of Catherine WARREN, spinster of Wootton, was proved in 1845.  She may be the youngest child mentioned above and, being a spinster, may mention the children of her brothers and sisters.

[kiwicatz]

Food for thought, Orpheus
The names of this Francis father and siblings are suggestive.
Where is Wootton in relation to Bedford? And where would I go to find the Wills?
Thank you for your time in replying.
regards
Jan

PS You wouldn't have a stray Goodman lady named Priscilla in your tree, b abt 1773 - I'm looking for such a lady who was born somewhere, and married in Lincolnshire in 1796

[Orpheus]

The village of Wootton is about 4 miles from the centre of Bedford and the parish is almost adjacent to the parish of Elstow which John P mentioned in an earlier post.

The wills are held at BLARS (Bedfordshire and Luton Archives and Record Services) in Bedford.  I will be there on 23 and 24 May and, if you can wait that long, I could look at the wills for you.  You could then decide whether or not you required copies of them.

As for the GOODMAN family I'm afraid I don't know of any Priscilla so can't really help you there.  I do, however, have a WARREN family in my ancestry and can trace them back to 1603 in the parish of Barton in the Clay (or Barton-le-Clay), Bedfordshire.  WARRENs were quite prolific in this parish so it could be that we might eventually find a common link.

[kiwicatz]

Thanks JohnP - I think Francis can go back in the too hard basket for now - maybe I can bully my daughter in doing a trip from London, and doing some looking

Orpheus
If you can have a look at the wills, I would be very grateful, I can wait as long as needs be - trying to get my daughter (see above) to go and look is a v slim chance.
I had to try Priscilla - she obviously didn't come from Lincs (not many of that surname there at all) so I am slowly trying every county.

I am trying also to find the marriage of Francis and Cathrine's oldest son James.
By 1841 he is married to Ann someone, and has 3 children, Charlie abt 1826, James abt 1829 and Sophie abt 1833. All the children have left home or whatever by 1851, and by 1861 Ann has died or gone somewhere. I have found someone who could be Charlie in 1851 - working as a teacher at the Union Workhouse in Kettering, Northamptonshire. He is still in Northamptonshire in 1871, in lodgings and unemployed, and by 1881 we is back in Bedford, described in the census as married - but no wife in sight. There's a James Warren visiting some people named Tinsley in 1851 who could be Charlie's brother, but no sign of Sophie at all in 1851. In 1861 there's a James living in Northamptonshire that's about the right age - married to a Jane, who could be the Jane Tinsley living in the house he was visiting on the 1851 census - there is also a Thomas Tinsley aged 14 boarding with them, in 1851 there is a Thomas Tinsley aged 4 who is Jane's brother. The major problem is that this James could also be the son of James'  brother Charles, as on the IGI there is a marriage in 1825 of a Charles Warren to an Ann Smith, who would also fit as James wife, and the marriage date would be right for that also.
Very confusing.
Regards
Jan