Born Vienna 1909, Marriage France 1935

[Roy G]

Hi, there.    I am doing something I said I would never do, finding a name on the Internet and seeing if it links to the family.  The surname of Czettel is however unusual and the lady's origins in Vienna suggests a family tie, so I am keen to find out who her parents were. 

The marriage that interests me is that of:
Gertrude Giselle Hermine Czettel of Paris, to Austrian Hubert Ferdinand Charles Herzfelder in Paris on 24 Dec 1935. 
Hubert was a wealthy dealer and collector of valuable foreign coins, and between 1937-1964 the couple lived at 77 rue des Saint-Peres, Paris.

They had no children, but from other sources I have gleaned Gertrude was born Vienna 10 Oct 1909, died 7 Aug 1991, and was buried in Salzburg, France.  I am hoping her parents' names are on her birth or marriage certificate and knowing those names could help me relate her to a dynasty of Czettels that originated from Budapest.

Roy G

[carinthiangirl]

the name Czettel is to find in Vienna gravesearch with 24 hits, so it´s not unusual  possible her parents in this list....
http://www.friedhoefewien.at/fhw/ep/programView.do?channelId=-22839&programId=21894&submit=true&submit=SUCHEN&friedhof=&jdb_bis=&jdb_von=&name=Czettel&vorname=
http://www.friedhoefewien.at/

the Herzfelder-name of her husband for me sounds jewish....         
also 4 hits for Herzfelder in Viennas-gravesearch, so maybe he was also from Vienna? 
http://www.friedhoefewien.at/fhw/ep/programView.do?channelId=-22839&programId=21894&submit=true&submit=SUCHEN&friedhof=&jdb_bis=&jdb_von=&name=Herzfelder&vorname=
the special jewish-cemetery-database for Vienna has some more. so the name can be jewish or not. Czettel there not to find: http://friedhof.ikg-wien.at/search.asp?lang=en
in fact the firstnames of both sounds NOT jewish!

"I have gleaned Gertrude was born Vienna 10 Oct 1909, died 7 Aug 1991, and was buried in Salzburg, France."
there is no Salzburg in France, but in Austria. a state and his samenamed capital has this name:
http://maps.google.at/maps?hl=de&q=Salzburg&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=535l2216l0l8l8l0l3l3l0l210l750l1.2.2&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&biw=1024&bih=544&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salzburg
german map Austria: http://www.touristinformation.at/bilder/austria.jpg
english map Austria: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f9/Austria_states_english.png

Tracing your Ancestors in Vienna - Some Guidelines:
http://www.wien.gv.at/english/history/archives/ancestors.html

there is an online-formular, but only in german, so you would need a person who helps filling out. the historical registry-dates of Vienna would be in the same time she was born, so maybe they can find her and it´s free. but i´m not sure if they can look without any adress, but make attempt. possible districts for the last adress for some are 14.Penzing, 19. Döbling and 16.Ottakring seen at gravesearch about cemeteries (Baumgarten, Grinzing and Ottakring). the list can not show for people buried at the central-cemetry Vienna/ Zentralfriedhof Wien which district they came from. so maybe this can be a help to state Penzing, Grinzing and Ottakring as possibilities, so they maybe would look for Gertrude Giselle Hermine Czettel´s birth in their files:
https://www.wien.gv.at/formularserver2/user/formular.aspx?pid=ee400162c3a64438a6604689dedc3c2f&pn=Bd6f3ce0ea6914ceaa6f2e2749948852e
historical registrydates-info in german: http://www.wien.gv.at/amtshelfer/kultur/archiv/forschung/historischemeldeunterlagen.html

Baumgarten (in Penzing): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baumgarten,_Vienna
Grinzing (in Döbling) : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grinzing
Ottakring: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottakring

there are some prominent Czettel of Vienna.
Adolf Zettel - prominent political (democrat) of Vienna. a street in Ottakring is named after him, also a center in 4th district: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Czettel
http://www.dasrotewien.at/czettel-adolf.html
http://www.parlament.gv.at/WWER/PAD_00189/index.shtml
http://maps.google.at/maps?hl=de&q=Adolf-Czettel-Gasse%20Wien&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=4372l11239l0l24l24l0l17l17l0l192l1022l1.6&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&biw=1024&bih=544&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl
Hans Czettel was also a social-democrat (SPÖ), who later moved to Ternitz in Lower-Austria: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Czettel
http://www.dasrotewien.at/czettel-hans.html
http://geschichte.landesmuseum.net/index.asp?contenturl=http://geschichte.landesmuseum.net/personen/personendetail.asp___id=1295488923

phonebook Austria: http://www.herold.at/en/telefonbuch/
13 hits for Czettel in following austrian states:
    * Wien (7)
    * Niederösterreich (5)
    * Burgenland (1)
http://www.herold.at/telefonbuch/czettel/
7 hits for Czettel in Vienna in following districts.
    * Wien 14 - Penzing (4)
    * Wien 4 - Wieden (1)
    * Wien 3 - Landstrasse (1)
    * Wien 6 - Mariahilf (1)
http://www.herold.at/telefonbuch/wien/czettel/

there is a Rudolf Czettel who works with movie-productions. some for me wellknown movie-series of austrian TV to find in his list:
http://www.filmdesigners.at/index.php?spr=4&ctrl=mitglieder&mid=6&bid=1
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0194474/
here at portrait for Wilhelm Alfred Adlmüller, Modedesigner, 1909 - 1989 (born Nürnberg, Germany, buried Vienna) is stated a Ladislaus Czettel who once worked at Vienna Opera. Ladislaus has seen his talent and looked for a work for him when he came Vienna: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Ji_Nj8NKUQAJ:www.viennatouristguide.at/Friedhoefe/Zentralfriedhof/Index_33_G/adlmueller.htm+Czettel+Wien&cd=76&hl=de&ct=clnk&gl=at&source=www.google.at

found an Christopher Czettel of Ternitz, possible descendant of Hans Czettel who moved Ternitz: http://christopher-czettel.net/kontakt/impressum/

now think a lot for you to look. 

[Roy G]

Firstly, many thanks carinthiangirl.

There is such a lot here to reply to and as senile guys like me are always being told we cant multitask, I have to do it bit by bit.  Yes the family names of Czettel and Herzfelder have Jewish origins, but circa 1896, some opted to change their names into something with less Jewish undertones.

First suggested website:   Great list, although the timeslot is a bit out for those mid 19th century relatives I know of to fit in.  I knew of the politicians (Adolph & Hans born in the 1920s) but unfortunately their descendent, Christopher cannot tell me who their parents were.  Primarily my attention has been drawn to Magdelena who I will try to find out more about.

Second two suggested websites:   First unfortunately adds nothing, the second I was aware of and has added things in the past, but regrettably only related to other family lines.

Saltsburg correction accepted,.  It was a mental slip on my part, but I now wonder if it was Strasburg.  I will go back and verify.
The third Google map suggested website is again one I regularly use.  I too believe European Family history is lacking if findings are not presented in conjunction with maps.

Thanks for the website which details researching in Vienna.  It's one I have not come across before.
The next I certainly would need an interpreter by my side.
I have contacted Christopher in the past, but see the site you gave me also listed Rudi's e'mail.  I will now try to contact him.

Lots to do, and thanks again.      Roy G

[jorose]

On the French side, I don't know that you will be able to get a copy of the marriage certificate as you are not a direct relative.  Do have you have any contact with their godson who submitted the CRT claim?

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~prohel/names/misc/posner.html
 - this site gives her parents as Izidor (Dori?) and a Marguerite of Paris.

Incidentally:gallica.bnf.fr has an old photograph of "77 rue des Saint-Peres"

[Roy G]

Thanks to you both

Re  http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~prohel/names/misc/posner.html
 - which gives her parents as Izidor (Dori?) and a Marguerite of Paris. 
This was a submission to Peter Rohel by me, which I am seeking to verify, for I have one piece of conflicting evidence.

I also meant to add that the Ladislav Czettel of the Vienna Opera House and Folies Bergere in Paris was a half relative (mother of the blood line, but not father).  I have his history in considerable detail (from birth to suicide) and find it quite interesting that although famous as a costume and dress designer, and his artwork is widely collected, he has no entry in Wikipedia and none of the other art history websites that mention him have the correct details of his age or parentage.   Roy G

[carinthiangirl]

austrian link -  it is stated that not many info about him.  "Wiener Bühne" writes in November 1929: "some years ago one day he came as a young man about Paris from Budapest to Vienna".
Ladislaus Czettel  >>> 12th March 1895, Budapest - 5th March 1949, N.Y.
www.filmarchiv.at/rte/upload/filmhimmel_pdf/fh_008.pdf

[Roy G]

Yes that's the correct birth date (most biographies say 1904) but it's still not the correct birth name. 
He was a child of Iren's first husband and only officially got the Czettel surname when he was adopted by his mother's new husband Odon in 1902.  Wish I could get a copy of the picture with that article and a translation of the supporting text, but its a PDF file.   

The only decent photo I have of him suggesting his femine tendency, is the pass he obtained circa 1918 when he crossed the Austrian border at Feldkirch.   Bezirkshauptmannschaft Feldkirch Passvisen 1914-1918 (Schachtel 474 u. 475)
As a gay Jew, he was fortunate to escape the holocaust, his half brother, actor Emmerich Czettel, was not so lucky.     Roy G

[carinthiangirl]

you are right - it´s a saved pdf-file, so not printable.
have not seen that, what a pity for you. but i have seen another picture - must look again.....

here it is and you can copy it: http://www.bildarchivaustria.at/Pages/ImageDetail.aspx?p_iBildID=306169
also another - him with Hilde Radnay >> Ladislaus Czettel zusammen mit Hilde Radnay bei der Anprobe eines Abendkleides:
http://www.bildarchivaustria.at/Bildarchiv//410/B306174T4679616.jpg
http://www.europeana.eu/portal/record/92060/2CBD4D28AB6F093F1686C8085A8863F25B833441.html

is this the document you mean? it states he came from Hotel St.Gotthard in Zürich, Switzerland (before lived Davos) via Feldkirch, Vorarlberg, Austria to Budapest in 1919. it shows the relative (father Edmund Czettel, Dohanystreet 20, Budapest) he went in Hungary. but better you tell if you know this document or not before make translation. it´s in german and was made by austrian-hungarian (KuK) general-consulat in Zürich.
http://123nonstop.com/biography/Czettel,_Ladislaw
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~prohel/pictures/Misc-5/1919_Ladislav_Laci_Czettel_pass.jpg
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~prohel/pictures/Misc-5/1919_Ladislav_Laci_Czettel.jpg

[Roy G]

Yes that was the pass which I already have, so no need to translate.  On that document he translated his adopted father's Hungarian name (Odon) as Edward.  The Zigmond on the toombstone was his step grandfather and it was me that photographed it and gave it to Peter Rohel's website.  However the other Austrian website you recommended I had never visited and I thank you so much.  Especially as it has what I believe to be two pictures of him in drag, if the size of the feet and shape of the nose are anything to go by.

Films and plays on which Laci Czettel worked
Einbrecher                              (1930) aka Burglars (English title) Murder for Sale (USA) aka Der Einbrecher (Germany)     
Tagebuch der Geliebten         (1935) aka Affairs of Maupassant (USA) aka Maria Baschkirtzeff (Austria)
Diario di una donna amata,    (1935) aka Affairs of Maupassant (USA)
Pygmalion                               (1938) aka Bernard Shaw's Pygmalion (English title)    Called himself Professor L. Czettel.
Rosalinda                                (1942-1944) Original, Musical, Operetta. Costume Design by Ladislas Czettel
Helen Goes to Troy                 (1944) Play Costume Design by Ladislas Czettel
La Vie Parisienne                    (1945) Revival, Musical Comedy Opera Costume Design by Ladislas Czettel

Roy G