Unknown people in Grave

[oliebarton]

Hello

Can anyone advise please

I've recently foun where my grt grandparents were buried

James Barton & Frances Barton, buired in 1965 & 1963 in the catholic part of Moston cemetary in Moston, Manchester.

I was telling my dad as he presumed there was a gravestone but as I told him there wasn't want he's planning in getting one sorted for his grandparents.

However I've now found 2 other people interned in the grave plot:

Richard Joseph Roughe death 12/11/63 aged 62 living at Water Street, lower broughton

Mary Ellen Boyle 26/7/48 aged 82 living at Nazareth House, Prestwich

Although the surname Roughe the lady told me in the cemetary office could be Boyle due to the way it is written I can't link these two people two my tree at all or find records for them. Was it the norm to share grave plots?

Many Thanks

Olie

[Guy Etchells]

If it was a common or public grave, yes, it was normal practice to have "unconnected people" in the same grave.
If it was a private grave then no.
Cheers
Guy

[oliebarton]

Thanks for your reply

I went back to the cemetary who confirmed it was a family grave so I did some more digging and managed to locate the oter two people in the grave. The surname is actually Bougle not Boyle or Roughe as written in the records of the cemetary records. They were my grt grans Auntie & Uncle

thanks again

Olie

[Johnner Kid]

Hi Olie,
Can I suggest you try to contact the Funeral Director of the service who arranged the most recent burial in this family grave.
If it was a Scottish location then the grave plot (we call it the Lair) would have been bought from the local authority or the graveyard authorities. The original buyers would have been issued with a Lair Certificate which is actually the deed proving ownership.  This document is usually passed on by the family members or placed with a family solicitor as is often the case with a will. 
In Scotland, and I would assume the same for England, subsequent use of the lair requires the presentation of the lair certificate.  The same goes for having a marker put in place.  Some authorities will even specify the range of permitted markers, such as the material used, size etc.
Try to consult the Funeral Director (who should be able to quote you prices without obligation) they should be able to trace the current holder of the lair certificate. 
Lairs were once bought and sold like real estate but this was made illegal in the the early 1900s.
Hope that helps
Sy

[dawnsh]

Hi Sy

Don't think this is Scotland

James Barton & Frances Barton, buired in 1965 & 1963 in the catholic part of Moston cemetary in Moston, Manchester.

Dawn

[oliebarton]

Thanks for the reply's

Not sure who the last funeral director who have been. Maybe the cemetary can tell me. My Dad will be contacting them to make arrangements to sort out a headstone in the near future

Olie

[Johnner Kid]

Yes Dawn, I didn't think Manchester had been relocated.
I simply stated what the Scottish 'legalities' were regarding the reuse of lairs (grave plots) and said I didn't know if the same applied in England.  I think I read elsewhere that you had a funeral director in the family.  Maybe you would care to ask about the English situation regarding the ownership of grave plots [lairs] and what proof is required when a grave is reopened or a memorial is erected.
Cheers,
Sy

[dawnsh]

Hi Sy

Very few plots in municipal cemeteries are purchased 'in perpetuity', most are leased for 50, 75 or 100 years.

The cemetery offices do know who the registered keepers are/were in case the deeds to the plot have gone missing. I do know that if you are not next of kin, but are related to the family interred, you can get legal documentation to have the deeds transferred into your name if the lease hasn't yet expired.

I understand that each municipal cemetery will have its own rules and regulations as to if a new memorial can be erected or plot re-opened.

Many of the older cemeteries around England & Wales where plots haven't been re-opened or the leases expired years ago are now designated as areas of conservation or nature reserves and work cannot be carried out in them.

What is also starting to happen in and around London where there is a massive shortage of space, is that some of the older plots, where the leases have expired but where there is still room for more interments are being re-used by other families who want to have family members buried rather than cremated. There have been discussions on here about it. What I would say in the cemeteries' defence is that that do try to make contact with the descendants but the passage of time since the last interment, expiry of the lease and today is huge and they do not have the financial resources to do the detailed genealogical work required to track down and make contact with living relatives.

Dawn

[Johnner Kid]

Thanks for the information Dawn, I would think that even  100 year leases would be too short and problematic for a lot of families.  In Scotland many gravestones are family memorials and not simply a record of the burials in that particular lair.  Often the inscription will list many family members who died and are buried elsewhere, often overseas (that many not be so common in England).
I'm just wondering what would be the fate of such family memorials if a plot lease expired after just 50 years.  As I said in an earlier post, the law in Scotland changed in the early 19 hundreds to reclassify lairs preventing their resale as if they were real estate.
Regards,
Sy