William Speer b. 1717 and son William b abt 1765

[ThamesDitton]

Good stuff, thanks Jennifer.   

Wilhelm is buried in a Speer grave in Woking Brookwood cemetery . 

Courtenay Forbes Terry must be the brother of the Miss Terry to whom Capt. Wilfred Dakin Speer was engaged at the time of his death (she is said by a Speer descendant not to have returned the family jewels which he gave her!)

Edward Frederick Sandys was the younger brother of Hannibal Sandys (the third Hannibal in a line of Sandys originating in Cornwall), sons of Hannibal (the second) x Cecilia Speer.  dob  December 21, 1832, churchwarden at St Nicholas TD for 22 years, died Nov 15 1910.

I have a fair bit on these Sandys, probably the subject of a future enquiry here to tidy up ends (but not yet!).  They feature because of the Speer connection: when William Speer the younger's grandson Wilfred Dakin Speer was killed in 1867 there was no direct tail male so the Speer estates passed to William the younger's eldest surviving daughter Maria Speer, died 1871 aged 83; thence to her nephew Hannibal (the third).  Hannibal then took the name of Speer by royal warrant to comply with the terms of William's will (William showed all the signs of a domineering 'control freak').   He thereby became Lord of the manor of Weston

For the immediate present I'm particularly interested in filling out details of William Speer the younger born abt 1765 x Mary (maiden name not yet known) and tidying up their 19 children many of whom did not survive childhood.  And especially, clues to that William's occupation other than landowner, and to his activities other than those given above, between 1800 - 1835.  Did he follow his father into the Treasury?

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Because there are loads of Speers dotted around, and this particular family seems to have been particularly complicated, the subject has to some extent defeated earlier local historians even though there are many Speer family papers available.  For example, nobody knows for sure in which house here William d 1805 and William d 1844 actually lived - when they weren't in Westminster or Fulham.  The latter is listed in a directory as at Weston Grove.  There is no Weston Grove today, but an ordnance survey map has that name on the site of a grade II listed house known since as The Newlands.  Another possibility is a house now known as Weston Grange.  There is also a mention of Weston Lodge in NA papers, and some here think that this might be a corruption of West End Lodge (where Wilfred Speer lived - now known as 'the Old Manor House' though by 'Old' is certainly meant 'former' rather than ancient).  But those papers put Weston Lodge firmly in Weston (Green) and not in TD village where West End Lodge was/is....

I have great faith in the ability of this forum to crack the nut - you've done some amazing work on two or three other subjects and for my part I can contribute some of these local historical details to add to the pile of useful information and histories on rootschat.

[ThamesDitton]

On William Speer the younger b abt 1765, snippets:
 
-  JP

Votes in Westminster Elections 1818
MF Burdett ( a reformer!)  WILLIAM SPEER, St Margaret, Westminster, and St John the Evangelist
But normally like his father a Tory:
The Standard (London, England), Monday, September 03, 1838; Issue 4431
Grand Conservative Dinner - Kingston on Thames
The Mayor of this borough entertained a large party of the neighbouring magistrates and gentry to a sumptuous dinner at the Griffin Inn, on Friday.  Amongst the guests were ...... Mr. W Speer......  On the Duke of Wellington's health being proposed, the most enthusiastic feelings were demonstrated

Parliamentary records (tantalising!):
1813:
OCCASIONAL PAYMENTS:
Home Secret Service .
10,000. 0. 0
Special Service and Royal Bounty
Colonel Herbert Taylor ...
Henry Norton Willis, Esq.
William Speer, Esq.

1815
William Speer, Esq. to pay Bills drawn by the Duke of Wellington, towards the purchase of a House at Paris, for the residence of His Majesty's Ambassador

LONDON GAZETTE, Saturday, Nov. 15 1817. William Speer of Thames Ditton nominated for Sheriff (as one of three in Surrey) by the Lords of the Council at the Exchequer, and:
appointed as Sheriff for Surrey by the Prince Regent for the year 1819 (The Times, Friday, Feb 12, 1819)

[ThamesDitton]

Concerning Rev. Wilfred Speer b. abt 1800:

During his ecclesiastical trial in 1841 (on which I'm writing for our local magazine) a  distinguished witness mentioned that Wilfred had recently lost 'a mother, a sister and a child' (possible mitigating factors in his alcoholism). 
- Mother was Mary, wife of William Speer (maiden name, date of death?)
- sister was? (Not Maria or Cecilia who survived him)
- child was?

[ThamesDitton]

Right: got confirmation of William b. abt 1765's day job.  Like his father, he was a civil servant in the Treasury.  A well-researched piece deploring undeserved government pensions in the Supplement to The Spectator Nov 18, 1837 sourced to government official accounts, with several interesting tables,  records him as Chief Clerk and Auditor of Treasury Accounts, Salary £1,700   pension £1,700.   Compares with George Harrison, Assistant Secretary of the Treasury and Auditor of Treasury Accounts whose salary was £8,500 and pension £2,200.
sourced by the Spectator to Finance Accounts, No.68

Using that,
'Treasurers and Commissioners of the Treasury 1660—1870', Office-Holders in Modern Britain: Volume 1: Treasury Officials 1660-1870 (1972), pp. 16-25. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=16739 Date accessed: 24 August 2011
"Chief Clerks c. 1689-1856
This grade dates from at least 1685. The identity of the Chief Clerks cannot be ascertained until 1689 when they were five in number. In about 1697 they were reduced to four. Until 1805 the Chief Clerks ranked after the Joint Secretaries and in addition to their own particular responsibilities acted in a general advisory capacity to the Board.  In 1805 they were displaced from their position as the senior members of the permanent staff by the Assistant Secretary. At the same time they were given specific responsibilities for the divisions of business, one being assigned to each of the first two divisions, one to the third and fourth and one to the fifth and sixth.....Until 1782 the Chief Clerks received their remuneration in the form of equal shares in a third part of the office fees. In that year they were accorded fixed salaries of £800. This sum was raised to £1080 in 1798 and in 1801 a progressive scale was introduced rising after fifteen years to £1200 and after twenty years to £1400.  In 1821 a fixed salary of £1200 was established for succeeding holders of the offices. This was reduced to £1000 in 1834."

List of appointments:
...1808    17 May    Speer, W.

[ThamesDitton]

And William (1765?-1844)'s father William Speer (1717-1805) also had a pension from HM Treasury:
The Morning Post and Gazetteer, Friday, July 17, 1801; Issue 10261
Account presented to the House of Commons, of all subsisting Pensions, granted by the Crown, during pleasure, or otherwise, and payable at the Exchequer.  29 June 1801.
- William Speer pension of £200 formerly paid at the Treasury

[ThamesDitton]

Fellow of the Royal Society (from their lists):
William Speer 28/05/1812 c 1764 – 11 April 1844 HM Treasury

and one of the Treasury auditors for the Babbage Engine expenditure:
http://sites.google.com/site/babbagedifferenceengine/analysisofexpenditureondifferenceenginen
last visited 24/08/11
Analysis of the Costs of and Government Expenditure on Babbage's 1st Difference Engine
By CJ.D. Roberts M.A.
".....After the Engine had been formally declared public property (at a meeting between the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Henry Goulburn and Lord Ashiey on 24 February 1830, but not confirmed by a minute of the Board of the Treasury till 24th December that year) the Treasury adopted a system of having the accounts formally reviewed by their own auditors, Messrs William Speer and Stamp Brooksbank. These two appear in the story told in the surviving Mss as a pair of veritable bureaucratic 'Rosencrantz and Guildensterns'. They seemed to have quibbled every penny spent by Babbage on the Engine, insisting on stamped and signed receipts etc.. They certainly did not indulge in any form of financial planning or management, tasks one might expect of professional auditors today. ..... It can be seen from Speer and Brooksbank's reports, which still exist today in the Public Record Office at Kew...."

But still no joy on the basic dates/names of William b abt 1765, his marriage to Mary surname n/k, her death,  and the dobs and dods of their 19 children.

[ThamesDitton]

I'm finding it difficult to get any proper hits on these Speers e.g. ancestry.  Nothing on the maiden name or marriage of Mary .....   to William Speer (1764-1844).  The marriage must have taken place about 1785-1798, given that William was born 1764 (according to the Royal Society's membership records) and that their eldest surviving son Wilfred was born abt. 1800-1801 and one has to leave room for a deceased son William (if not others) to be born before before him.

As to William's son Wilfred: there is an item datelined:
Cambridge, Aug. 30 .
The Bury and Norwich Post: Or, Suffolk and Norfolk Telegraph, Essex, Cambridge, & Ely Intelligencer (Bury Saint Edmunds, England), Wednesday, September 01, 1830; Issue 2514
On Thursday last, at St. Margarets Westminster, the Rev Wilfred Speer, M.A. of Trinity college, to Miss Speer, of Park-street

That would put the date of Wilfred x Sarah at 26 August 1830 and the parish as St Margarets.  Park Street Westminster today is in Mayfair while the Speers' Westminster House was at Park Prospect, which became Old Queen Street Westminster (very close to the Treasury).  It seems highly likely that Wilfred's wife Sarah was a cousin.  But I can't find any hits in online registers.

From a divorce case (Kinnaird)  that went to the House of Lords, where Wilfred appeared as a witness in his official capacity, I now know that in July 1831 he was Officiating Minister at the Parish of Saint Margaret's, Westminster