Trying to find death of William Thomas Gwilliam, Salford

[janjim]

Hi Dave,
Thanks for this, I will continue my search

jan

[elizabeth1969]

hello im new here i was brought here trying to find details about ym great gran srah ellen ambrose possibly born 1877 was in manchester she married robert stirling in 1898 ( possible date) had my grandad robert junior in 1900..  i noticed an ice cream seller topic and have replied  to that will copy the reply here...


Hello, this reply is especially to janjim,  I am trying to do a family tree and my grandad was robert stirling  his mums was sarah ellen ambrose she married my grandads dad robert stirling snr.  I Think (  through searcching the archives) census..  sarah ellen lived  at 5 new islington with her borther james and john and thier mum elizabeth and dad possibly william..   But I have a rought birth date for sarah ellen aborse in manchester in 1877 I am thining this is my great gran  , i have no pictures or any information about her or her family i have a rough death age at 37 in the year 1916 , could this be the daughter of your great great grandparents if so i would love to see any pictures if you have any . sarah ellen had my grandad in 1900 he had a sister who was two years older called lillian but she died in child birth with her baby at 16 years old they he also had a brother called john william but they lost touch and both has passed away late 80,s ..     My grandad stirling married my gran Frances cruise  in manchester in 1927 ( they lived in ancoats  funny enough  my grans   sister elizabeth married an italian called nada tiani  ( his dad came from italy carlos tiani and played a big part starting the italian soicety off in the early days in ancoats )so ice cream selling played a part in my past on both sides.     I would be thankful for any Photos of the  ambroses as we have none. I am sure the ambrose you talk about here are my grandads mum sarah ellens family , regards elizabeth 
 
 

[janjim]

Hi Elizabeth,
Do not believe that the Sarah Ellen Ambrose that you refer to, is part of our family.   Certainly nothing to do with the William Thomas Gwilliam subject I have posted.

jan

[elizabeth1969]

hi yes sorry i replied on the wrong thread, apologies   regarding  gwilliam  keep searching you may find your uncle one day good luck

[Janet Coates-Jones]

Good afternoon Everybody,

I can tell you virtually nothing about William T Gwilliam on the Gwilliam side of the family that you do not already know. He was born in Kinnersley, Herefordshire about 1873/4, the son of William Gwilliam b 1846 and Eliza Kearn, b 1849.

 He married my maternal grandmother's sister, Margaret Ann Fielding, in Salford in 1897. They had at least 4  children William Thomas born 1898, Annie, born 1903, Walter b 1907, Millicent born 1908  - and perhaps Thomas born 1914 and Alfred  born 1918.

ALL their children have 'Fielding ' names.

William T Gwilliam Junior joined the Lancashire Fusiliers, enlisting in Manchester.

He was killed in action on 20th October 1918 in France, Flanders. He was a private.

His Burial Place is Tournai, Hainaut, Belgium

Margaret Ann Gwilliam nee Fielding died in  Salford in June 1945.

A William T Gwilliam of approximately the right age, died in Haverfordwest, Pembrokeshire in 1957. i.e.  12 years after the death of his wife

This may, or may not, be 'your' William T Gwilliam.

I was very interested to learn that William T Gwilliam  left his wife, Margaret nee Fielding, after the end of WWI. Have you any more details about this please?

This behaviour fits the oral history of WTG senior that I was told, but I have no direct evidence. I was intending to search court records

Hope this helps.

JanJones

[janjim]

Hi Janet,
Well this is very interesting, have only just found your posting.   I recently changed computers and somehow I think this message just did not come through correctly.
My Mother always said that Will Gwilliam went missing during the war, she said no more, maybe the family kept it from ours in Australia.    We thought maybe he went to War, as did his son William Thomas Gwilliam.  Yes I have all the records on him.

Would love to know more on what happened to William (or Billy) Senior, need to do more checking with Ancestry maybe, but if he spent much time imprisoned, surely there must be information somewhere on that.

jan

[janjim]

Janet,
I am also wondering about that information on William's birth being at Kinnersley, Herefordshire.
We do know that his Father William Gwilliam was definitely born in Monmouth Wales, on the 29th November, 1845 we have certificate to prove, and also his marriage certificate in our hands, to Eliza Kearn on the 14th October, 1868 at Hereford.
No children appear to have been born until 1873, when eldest child Elizabeth Lilian (Lily) was born then Thomas William b. 1875, not sure of accurate date, but census records show all of the children as having been born in Salford, Lancashire, not Herefordshire.

I have searched Ancestry Records, so far nothing on prison records.

jan

[Janet Coates-Jones]

 Hi Jan,

  In 1881, William Thomas Gwilliam , aged 5, was living with his parents, William Gwilliam  and Eliza at 80 Tatton Road, Salford. His father was a cabinet maker.   The other children were Lilian, aged 7, Thomas aged 3 and Susan aged 1.  The parents were born, according to the census, in Monmouth  (actually Kinnersley, Herefordshire) and Hereford Tibberton, respectively.   ALL the children were born in Salford.

William Thomas married Margaret Ann Fielding in 1897  (ref 8d 247)

The witnesses were James Openshaw and Ada Woodhouse.

Margaret A Gwilliam died in Salford, in June 1945   ref  8d 448

I have discounted the death in 1957 of William Gwilliam in Haverfordwest. This William Gwilliam would appear to be too affluent to be 'our' William Gwilliam.

It came as quite a shock to me to realise that Margaret was alive until 1945.  I had always implicitly understood that she died much earlier that that - I suppose because she was never referred to at the time.

The story I was told was that Margaret was the prettiest of the family. That she married 'Billy' Gwilliam who was not always honest. Indeed, because of this, there was , eventually, a rift between her two elder sisters and herself. Each time there was a baby, and/or Billy 'got into difficulties' her elder sisters would be appealed to for help. Eventually, they got fed up and broke off contact. I was told that one of her daughters came to my grandmother's, told her that Margaret had died and asked my grandmother whether she was coming to the funeral. My grandmother thought for a minute and then declined.

How much of this story is true, I have no idea. But the story never varied.

 I have recently looked at the photographs of family events until 1935 and I can find no one on them who might be Margaret - and certainly no one on them who might be Billy.

I would guess that the final two sons WERE his , as they have both family names including 'Thomas' which was a Gwilliam name not a 'Fielding' name, whereas 'Alfred' was.

So what did happen to Billy? No concrete evidence - merely suggestions.

1. That the death of his eldest son in 1918 left him so upset, that he quit the family home in 1918/1919 and just disappeared.

2. That he changed his identity to escape further difficulties and walked out.

3. That he died in prison. I have no experience of using prison records, so I would not know how to check this.

4. What I also do not know is whether convicted 'criminals' (if indeed, he was) were offered military service in 1916 onwards - conscription was brought in on May 25th 1916 - as an alternative to imprisonment.

5 The evidence that Margaret, as mother, was the relative informed of the death of her eldest son suggests that William the elder had either died by that time, or was in prison, or had disappeared.

I have a relative by marriage, who knew the family long years before I existed. I have contacted his daughter to see if she could ask him. This is a very long shot. Should it prove fruitful, I shall let you know.

JanJo

[janjim]

Hi Janet,
Going through my records, William Gwilliam, Cabinetmaker was born 29th November, 1845 at Harpers Yard, Monmouth, son of Thomas Gwillim (Gardener in Monmouth) and Susan Gwillim (formerly Haynes).    I have birth certificate in my possession.   My Grandmother Susan Collier was named after her grandmother. William Gwilliam married Eliza Kearn on 14th October, 1868 at the Register Office at Hereford.   He was inadvertently named Thomas Gwilliam, so this is why we had so much trouble finding their marriage certificate.   They lived at 18 Bath Street, Hereford, William was working as a Cabinet Maker and they had no children until they moved to Salford .  Lilian was the eldest and was born in 1873, approximately 4 years before they had children.  Yes and I agree with you all the children were born in Salford.

William Gwilliam Snr.'s wife Eliza died aged 44 years from Emphysemia in 1890 at 80 Tatton Street, Salford, and then later William re-married to Margaret Elliott the Hardware Shop Proprietor in 1891.   Margaret Elliott (nee Collier) was a Widow and had 8 children, so the whole family lived together, my Grandmother often talked about her wicked step-mother !  She was a very difficult lady, so it would have been hard on William's children, son Willie as shown in 1891 census was 15 years of age, working as an Joiner's Apprentice.   The younger children were 13, 11 and 9.  We believe that William & Margaret also lost two children during their marriage.

My Grandmother Susan Gwilliam married Margaret Elliott's nephew John Alfred Collier in 1904 and in 1911 they migrated to Australia with two of their children. 

Susan's older brother Thomas Gwilliam (always called Tom here in Australia)  also a Joiner,  and her younger sister Nellie Gwilliam  migrated to Australia, around the same year.

We have photos of all the siblings, and going through census records, it appears that there was always confusion about the two sons proper names, sometimes called Thomas, other times called William.

William Gwilliam Senior died at the Moston Hotel, Moston, North Lancashire on the 29th April, 1910, his wife Margaret was still alive, and was then found living at Moston in the family home, but under another surname , "Palmer" with one of her sons Robert Elliot.  Why she felt the need to change her surname, is not known, all very strange.   We have letters still from other family members showing that William Gwilliam Senior was a very well respected person in Salford.   He had a very good business while married to his first wife Eliza.

So there was obviously much sadness in the family that were left behind in England, as eldest daughter Lilian's marriage disintegrated due to her husband's alcoholism, had young children and could only feed them on bread, as there was no money left from her husband's wages, after he paid back what he owed at the Pub each week.     

So this is all very interesting, I look forward to hearing further from you.

jan