John Menzies

[peeem]

I am trying to trace the birth of my gg grandfather John Menzies.
 
He died in England in 1877 aged 47. His marriage certificate dated 1855 states only that he and his wife Mary (Sutherland) were of full age. They had four children, the first, Jane was born in 1857 in Spittal in the parish of Halkirk Caithness.

So he seems to have gone to England, possibly for work, he was a merchant seaman, got married there but went back to Scotland for the birth of his first child.

The census in England just says that they were both born in Scotland

Present at Jane's birth was her father Alexander so I am assuming John was at sea.

John's father was named Peter and was a joiner.

I hope that is enough to go on.

Many thanks

[AMBLY]

Hi Peem

That John & Mary's first child was born in Scotland isn't unexpected - it was quite common for a Scottish woman to go back to her own mother/parents home to have her first child - and John & Mary were relatively not too far away in England (being in Northumberland) to make the trip, though it's not necessarily so that John also went back. Was Mary, daughter of Alexander SUTHERLAND from Caithness and do you know the name of her mother (was it Jane?)

I see from the Census
1861: Tynemouth
John MENZIES 32, b Scotland abt 1829
Mary MENZIES 32, b Scotland abt 1829
Jane 3 b Scotland
Barbara 1 b Scotland (actually registered in Tynemouth 1859)

1871: Tynemouth
Mary MENZIES 44, b Scotland (abt 1827)
Jane MENZIES 13, b Scotland
Barbara MENZIES 11, b North Shields
Peter MENZIES 10, b North Shields
Alexander MENZIES 3, b North Shields

What I get from this is:
* They were showing traditional habits - 1st son was named after John's  father, Peter. 2nd son was named after Mary's father, Alexander (albiet a big gap between those 2 sons  where other births of possible sons could have occurred to swat down the naming pattern theory!)
* Following the same naming theory though, the 1st daughter would be after Mary's mother (Jane?)  and there is a suitable looking Alexander SUTHERLAND in Spittal, Halkirk in 1861 with a wife named Jane B (for BAIN, I believe).
* Leaving the 2nd daughter to be named after John's mother, ie: Barbara.

If Mary was from Caithness, the fact her first daughter was born there doesn't add any weight to the idea that  her husband John  may have been  from there also (unless you do have some other evidence that he was?)

In the IGI are  these extracted records:
MARRIAGE:
Peter MENZIES & Barbara MacLEY
Married May 1821, Dunfermline, Fife

BIRTHS: in Dunfermline to Parents:  Peter MENZIES & Barbara McLEA
Samuel MENZIES b 1822
Augusta MENZIES b 1824
Elspith MENZIES b 1826
George MENZIES b 1828
John MENZIES b 29 Sep 1830
Margaret MEZNIES b 1833

Then Census from FREEcen :
http://www.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl

1841: S Inglis Street, Dunfermline
Peter MENZIES 47, Cabinet M, b Fife
Augusta MENZIES 17, b Fife
George MENZIES 13, b Fife
John MENZIES 9, b Fife
Margret MENZIES 8, b Fife
Peter MENZIES 4, b Fife

1851: 8 South Inglis Street, Dunfermline
Head: Peter MENZIES 62, Wright Master, b Monady, Perthshire
Son: Peter MENZIES 11, Scholar, b Dunfermline

With the age of Peter in 1841 - I'll bet that he was 52, and the enumerator completely misunderstood the instruction to round down the age to the nearest 5 years (ie: to age 50) and instead minused 5 years of his age (ie: to age 47).

It was Peter in 1851 Dunfermline  that I found first and pegged as being the only suitable  "Peter MENZIES, Joiner" in Scotland.   When I checked the IGI Marriage and saw his wife was Barbara, I wasn't a bit surprised.. the rest just followed and fit so well......can't see a better looking family.  On balance I think this is a good candidate for being John's family - just how to prove it beyond the circumstantial evidence!

Cheers
AMBLY

[peeem]

Hello AMBLY, and thanks for replying. You have given me an awful lot to think about!

If I can first say, I know little about John and less about Mary although the family tale say she was at least a couple of years older than John. Do you think this is why there is a discrepancy of 2 years in those two censuses?

I believe you are correct that John was not with Mary for the birth, as  Alexander, her father is noted as the person being present.

I have Jane's birth certificate but there is no mother named.
That's an interesting bit about the names. Peter does crop up a couple more times as more generations pass. Also Alexander is mentioned. I take your point about the possibility of other sons (do you mean died in infancy?) but if there were, and they had been named Peter, he could still name his youngest Peter could he not?

Of course you are correct in the fact that John could well be from elsewhere. That is my sticking point. His M/certificate just says Scotland and that is why I followed Jane's birth, hoping to find John in the same area. A bit tenuous I know but I didn't know what else to do.

Oooh, the ages are are getting a bit complicated  but I see what you mean about him being marked down to 47 instead of 50.

I think I'll go and have a look at his obituary, if it still exists, and see if it is less ambiguous in his birth place. Hopefully it will say Dunfermline  .

As an aside, Jane and her youngest brother died within 10 days of each other in 1896. I just have to look into that! First things first though.

Many many thanks for your time and effort.

[peeem]

Hello again.
Ok first let me say, I am pretty new to this so I hope you'll forgive me if I make glaring mistakes.

Anyway I tried to find John's obituary but it wasn't there. He died on a Sunday and there was no local paper for Sundays. I went forward about two months but still no joy. I am supposing the family just couldn't afford it.

I see I didn't answer AMBLY'S question about where Mary came from. All I can say is that Caithness is where her first born came from. so I am assuming, as her father, Alexander, was witness, that is where they came from. Sorry that is the best I can do.

As I mentioned in my earlier post, I was going to look into the deaths of their oldest and youngest children within ten days of each other. I have now done so. The informant on both is a brother-in-law. I have found his marriage to Barbara.
So now to a question.

Does anyone think it would be worth it to acquire  Barbara's birth (or marriage certificate) to see if her fathers place of birth is shown?

I'm kind of hoping that as Jane was born at Mary's parents, Barbara might have been born at her fathers!! I know I know but what else can I do? It would be the missing piece if it would fit with AMBLY'S suggestion.

Thanks.