Margaret Church

[heywood]

Hello again,
I think KGarrard has explained the error re 1881 unless you have the information elsewhere.
Edge Hill is an area of Liverpool.

Free BMD
Hannah Churcher
birth 1884 West Derby
death 1887 Toxteth Park

her baptism shows she has the same parents as Matilda Massey

With regard to Henry - he perhaps presumably moved from Cornwall with Ruth's family to I O M and became a fisherman (if he wasn't already one).
Do you have the marriage certificate for his occupation?

I'm not sure why you find it difficult that he changed his occupation.

The only Henry that I can see in 1871who may be him in 1881 is one living in St Pancras with his grandmother. Unfortunately, I can't see granny in earlier censuses.

On his second marriage, Henry gives his father as John Church deceased Seaman.

[KGarrad]

Ruth died:

June qtr 1894
Toxteth Park   vol 8b, page 176
Church, Ruth   age 35

and Henry marries again:

June qtr 1895
Toxteth Park    vol 8b, page 386
Church, Henry
Bruce, Elizabeth

so, on 1901 census we have:
Reference RG13, Piece 3431, Folio 109, Page 12
305 Mill Street, Toxteth Park

Church, Henry  Head  M  41  Police Constable  b London
Church, Elizabeth  Wife  F  37  b Birkenhead
Church, Matilda  Daughter  F  11  b Liverpool
Church, William H  Son  M  5  b Liverpool
Church, Albert E  Son  M 3  b Liverpool
Roberts, Abraham  Boarder  M  21 Carpenter Labourer  b Lfynnongroyw, Wales


Finally, Henry & Ruth's marriage:

December qtr 1878
Penzance district    vol 5c, page 449
Churcher, Henry
Roberts, Ruth

[MattieC]

Thank you for your information some of which I already had.  I shall have to get a copy of Ruth and Henry's marriage certificate and delve a little deeper into John and "granny".
I have seen on Matilda's mariage certificate her father's occupation as "inspector" and I know that Henry retired from Liverpool police in 1908.  I have posted a photograph for possible identification and am wondering if this photo has something to do with an inspector's uniform with a Trinity House  connection as my brother said he thought somebody had something to do with Trinity House.
There is also the whereabouts of Henry on the 1911 census as he is not listed and I cannot find him listed on board a, ship or lighthouse, any ideas?
Thank you once again for your help which has proved invaluable.   

[heywood]

We are not allowed to post any 1911 information other than can be seen in indexes.
I can see Elizabeth and her two sons. Have you looked at them to see how she is described?
With regard to his later occupation-you say he retired from the Police Service in 1908.
Was an occupation shown on his death certificate e.g. 'retired ....' ?
If either of the later boys married, there may be an occupation on their certificates.
These comments are more directed to your query re the photo.

[MattieC]

Have just remembered I have Henry and Ruth's marriage certificate and the birth certificate for their son Henry.  I know there are a lot of coincidences yet I can't get my head round how a humble fisherman who couldn't write (he signed the certificates with a cross) could possibly have become a policeman.  Does that make any sense or am I being a bit picky?  I would have thought he would at least had to have been able to write to join the police force even then.

[heywood]

Yes I agree that there should realistically have been some level of literacy.
What is his father's occupation on his marriage certificate to Ruth?
However, in that intervening time between his marriage and his entering the police he could have had some sort of tuition.
He signs his marriage certificate in 1895.
I know you have said that he retired in the same year as his daughter's marriage - was he an Inspector in the police or was that his new job?
What do you mean by coincidences? Where are your doubts? You should be able to track back through your family- which you seem to have done to arrive at Henry and Ruth.
I think it is the later certificates - his death certificate also perhaps the later boys' marriage certificates and maybe even Elizabeth's status in 1911 which would give you clues to his later life.
Is there no one in the family who remember what he did as a job after the police?

[MattieC]

Thank you again for your prompt response.
Henry's occupation is listed as fisherman and his father, also Henry (rather a lot of them) was listed as sailor, deceased.
I have not applied for his marriage certificate to Elizabeth and maybe I should do, I will follow that up thank you.
No he did not retire in the same year as his daughter's marriage (Matilda) he retired after 25 years service with Liverpool police in 1908.  Matilda married 3/9/1911 and her father's occupation was listed as "Inspector".
Matilda reported Henry's death in 1939 and listed his occupation as "retired police constable" so I don't know where this "Inspector" has come from.
I have not traced the boys' marriages but I do know that Elizabeth's status on 1911 census has her at the top of the family, firstly listed as wife then crossed out and "head" entered.  I can find no trace of Henry whatsoever though he must still have been alive.
There is nobody left in the family other than me and as I was born when my parents were 41 and 42 they did not speak of their past.  My brothers died aged 27 (1958) and 66 (2003).  I don't suppose I was all that interested when a teenager so I have to do this the hard way and help from people like yourself and others.
I am grateful for the time you have spent on me and I will not give up as I find it all so fascinating and wish I had spent more time talking to my parents about their past.  A timely reminder to all children and parents to start talking about their past lives and not to "pooh pooh" the past as ancient!

[heywood]

Henry's marriage details to Elizabeth is available online and he gives his father as John. The witnesses are Robert and Mary Cain.
He has given two names for dad on both his marriages.

There is an Annie Cain as a witness for Matilda's marriage in 1911.
Albert E V Church marries in 1925 so he may have given a more up to date occupation for Henry.
Elizabeth Church possibly dies in 1953 so she and Henry may have lived apart as she didn't notify re his death.
That's about it I would say.
regards
heywood