Henry Webster Roberts. Wicklow Ireland to New Zealand

[Beg Clonrode...]

Hello John...

The following is all guesswork so feel free to take it with a grain of salt.

I think Mary's marriage to Henry was her second marriage. It seems possible to trace the children from her first marriage to 2011. Sometimes contacting a descendent can put you in touch with a family member with an interest in family history who has all the answers.

If you're interested I'll visit my local library in the next day or three and check the current electoral rolls which should give the final link to 2011.

Like I said, guesswork ---> grain of salt :-)

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The NZ Marriages CD actually lists Mary's surname as CLIFFORD, not CLIFTON.

Year/Folio - 1883/0258

Surname - CLIFFORD
Given Names - Mary Julia Annie

Spouse - ROBERTS
Given Names - Henry Webster

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First marriage
BDM NZ Marriages 1878/1902 - There is an 1878 marriage between a Henry Victor CLIFFORD and a Mary Julia Annie RITSON
First Marriage - PapersPast

There are two children from this marriage
BDM NZ Births 1879/4764 - Victor Hercules Wellington CLIFFORD - mother: Mary Julia Annie   father: Henry Victor
BDM NZ Births 1880/13379 - Maurice Henry Vivian CLIFFORD - mother: Mary Julia Annie   father: Henry Victor

Mary's first husband dies in prison
BDM NZ Deaths 1880/4121 - CLIFFORD Henry Victor Maurice 33Y
Death Notice - PapersPast
Death at the Gaol - PapersPast

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Second marriage

BDM NZ Marriages 1883/314 - Henry Webster ROBERTS to Mary Julia Annie CLIFTON
or
NZSG Marriages CD 1883/0258 - Henry Webster ROBERTS to Mary Julia Annie CLIFFORD

This is guesswork but I've made worse guesses before :-)

Personally I think CLIFTON is either a transcription error or a deliberate fudging of CLIFFORD because of the prison connection. Also Henry and Mary had a son whose middle name was Clifford.


Marriage of Mary's eldest son from her first marriage
BDM NZ Marriages 1899/3530 - Victor Hercules Wellington CLIFFORD to Mary Louisa FOOTE

Birth of Mary's grandson
BDM NZ Births 1901/8367 - Maurice Webster CLIFFORD - mother: May Louisa   father: Victor Hercules Wellington
Note the middle name of Webster

Marriage of Mary's grandson
BDM NZ Marriages 1931/3848 - Maurice Webster CLIFFORD to Patrene Mabel Berthe Maria Corliss SCHWARTZ

1972 electoral roll entry - courtesy of KHP :-)
Maurice Webster CLIFFORD, 1972, 47 Trafalgar St, Levin, retired
Patrene Mabel CLIFFORD, 1972, 47 Trafalgar St, Levin, married
Maurice Anthony CLIFFORD, 1972, 47 Tralfalgar St, Levin, former worker

Final resting place of Mary's grandson, his wife and their son
Enter Clifford in surname search
Horowhenua District Cemetery search

Death notice of Maurice Anthony CLIFFORD
Enter Maurice Clifford in search box
NZ Obits

I'm pretty sure some of the people listed in the death notice are still in the current Levin electoral roll. Contacting them might/should lead to other members of Maurice Anthony CLIFFORD's family. Maybe one of them has an interest in family history and knows Mary's fate and the fate of her children from both of her marriages. No harm in asking.

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And more guesswork...
Possible birth of Mary
BDM NZ Births 1859/2029 - Mary Juliana RITSON

Possible full name of T.RITSON, father of Mary Julia Anne RITSON
Marriage Notice - PapersPast


Regards
Beg

[powerwicklow]

Thanks again to everyone who has been working here.  Beg if you do get a chance to go to the library I would appreciate it. My original posting on Henry Webster  Roberts was all that I had on him until all of you helped.The other four Websters I have a few snippets on. Francis who married Jane Higgins I have been told had only one child who died in 1982, a Mrs Shiel. This would tie in with one of the cemetery findings. George and Robert were both gold miners in a place called Waitahuna. George drowned while out swimming and worked for a John Sutherland. Robert died of a lung disorder. John who married Ann Robertson was the last to arrive in NZ and is supposed to have arrived as a brother of a Tom Earls to get a cheaper fare on a ship called the Dunedin.  He was the father of twelve.

As I have said I have included the four Websters with the search for info on Henry Webster Roberts just to see if anything pops up that ties them together. Henry Webster Roberts mother (Sarah Roberts nee Webster) and my GGGgranny ,Margaret Smith (nee Webster) were sisters. Daughters of Henry and Elizabeth (nee Mahon ) Webster of Wicklow. George,Robert,Francis and John were sons of Robert Webster and if he was not a brother of Sarah and Margaret he was a cousin. Its one of those brick walls cases. So close to connecting them all and yet that little piece of information missing on paper.

John.

[Beg Clonrode...]

Hello John...

PM sent

Plus Dunedin Archives has the probate for Minnie SHIEL
http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=14719138

Unfortunately there are no rootschatters in Dunedin so if you want to view the probate you'd need to order it. There is a $20 photocopying and postage charge.

Email Dunedin[at][/blue]archives.govt.nz for further info (replace [at] with @)

Regards
Beg

[powerwicklow]

I am reading over and over the pieces posted and I may be playing with words but I dont think Henry Webster Roberts returned to NZ after his trip back to Ireland to be in the 1901 census. The newspaper article on his son Harrys wedding refers to him as Roberts Wicklow Ireland. In 1909 there is only an Alice Elizabeth seen returning and the same newspaper article confirms she did indeed return. This same article refers to Harry as his youngest son whereas if the John William we came across was a son , Harry should be refered to as the oldest. Henrys wife Mary arrived to the marriage with two sons and I think that they all been reared together Harry was seen as the youngest.

Henrys father back in Ireland had several farms and in 1901 Henry is to be found on one of them in Wexford, not the home farm in Wicklow. Again 1911 there are new people on this farm in Wexford and Henry and Alice Elizabeth are gone from Ireland. Who knows what money he may have inherited so as to fund new adventures and hence his passing away in Johannesburg in 1923.

John

[Beg Clonrode...]

Hello John...

Another PM sent.

A bit of a shot in the dark so no need to follow it up if you don't want to.

Having said that I'd love for it to be right cos you don't often get to pick the brain of an 89 year old.

Regards
Beg

[powerwicklow]

For anyone following this thread a request was put in yesterday for Harrys WW1 records to be digitised and they are there to be read today. You cannot fault that for service. Its a pity there are no children to be found here either .

Half way through it there is a reference " At Auckland 15-9-54" with some letters to follow plus a stamp  13 Aug 1954. Anyone have any idea what this means.

John.

[Canterburynorth]

Hi John,

The archway site is down for maintainence tonight but I am sure when its back up someone will read it. Its possible that is the date of Harrys death. The files usually have a dod on them somewhere. On NZ BMD there is a death that fits 1954.

Regards
Leandra

[powerwicklow]

Thanks for that Leandra.

I got rapped up in reading the file I never thought of cross referencing BMD's . I had sort of presumed once a soldier had decomissioned his file was closed . I had'nt thought that he would be kept track of later in life.

John.

[Beg Clonrode...]

Half way through it there is a reference " At Auckland 15-9-54"

Hi again...

As Leandra said it's the date of death, although the month is a 7 not a 9

BDM NZ 1954/24334 - ROBERTS, Harry 68Y - d.o.d 15 July 1954

If you have any spare money :-) you could purchase his death certificate. It will list the ages of his surviving children, if there were any.

NZSG Burial Locator CD says that he was buried at Mangere Cemetery in Auckland. Mangere does not have a website. However you can email the cemetery and ask for details from the burial record. The record may list next of kin. I've enquired at Mangere before and the staff are very helpful.

Don't think we're allowed to post email addresses to the board so I'll PM it to you.

There is also a note "NZSG Barkers funerals collection". Not sure what that means. Maybe a NZSG'er can help you out.

Regards
Beg