Hughes/Mathews in Llysfaen or Ruthin

[trimochyn]

Roger,

I've had a better look at John Hughes Spier's will. He had brothers James and Thomas, and sisters Martha and  Anne. There's a brother-in-law John Bull and John's son Henry. JSH's wife must have been Mary Bull, and interestingly enough there's a Mary Hughes Bull christened in Edmonton, Middx, 1761 (JSH was married in Edmonton). JSH leaves his house in Castle St, Ruthin, to James. Pigot's has James Hughes (nobility, gentry & clergy living there in 1835 and in 1841 James and sisters are still living there.

A Francis Pyner is mentioned, who's also mentioned here: http://www.pyner.org.uk/Pyners/PynersSRY.html, as is one of the other beneficiaries of JSH: John Edward Hughes of Shenington...

As for the Bulls, the 1851 census shows my ggg uncle James Vaughan Hughes visiting them at the rectory, Lathbury (Henry of the will became rector in 1838), so there is a connection with John Spier Hughes after all...

It's back to Ruthin, and Castle Street.

[despair]

I did the same and earlier today I was optimistic that I had a connection back to the 1851 census with John Davies(Newmarket),Elizabeth Hughes(nee Matthews-1788),Spier Hughes(84thfoot) and Elizabeth(born India1847/8)-but I seem to have lost it in the intervening hours-I will try again.
I'm fairly sure that the will also mentions a sister Mary("late departed this life")
towards the end of the second codicil and it is my belief that this Mary Hughes married Thomas Pardo(e) Matthews,rector of Ambrosden, and that they produced(1807) John Spier Matthews the "late nephew".I have a feeling the first connection above is linked
At one time I thought that the brother Thomas might be Thomas Hughes who marries Elizabeth Matthews,and therefore Thomas Hughes would not be the brother of your John Hughes and then the headache...........


Back to Castle Street you said-anything specific in mind?

The Denbighshire Archives have ostensibly broad coverage of deeds for the area back to the 14th century and nominally include Castle Street
I am equidistant(approx 40 mins) from the Flintshire and Denbighshire Archives(with a readers ticket).If there is a clear link to be found rather than a general "fishing expedition" I will gladly go-I have some other possible intetrest to follow in either or both!

Roger

[trimochyn]

Roger,

I'm actually getting less convinced that John Hughes of Nannerch is my gggf's father. I did some maths using Robert Hughes' dates as given in the Oxford database, and I can't see him being born any earlier than 1824 (often given in the census) but more likely 1828 or later. Seems unlikely that John and Anne Maria would start having children in their late thirties.

If Robert's brother James (I'm 99% certain it's him - fellow of the Royal College of Physicians, and our 'Uncle James' was a surgeon in the Crimea and lived until 1916) was visiting the Bulls, there must be a fairly direct connection to JS Hughes' brothers or sisters. JSH plainly didn't have any descendents: his monument in Ruthin mentions three sons 'who died in infancy.' I'm starting to wonder if brother James is the father, but then there are the Hugheses of Shenington...

If you are going to the Denbighshire archives anyway, would you be able to find records of occupancy for Hugheses in Castle Street, looking out for gent/nobility/clergy (I've absolutely no idea where the nobility can possibly come from)? That would be incredibly helpful.

Pip

[despair]

It will probably be at least next week before I go so-some time to develop more theories.......
Meantime here is my latest"speculative preliminary loose unchecked connection"...
John Hughes rector of Nannerch,previously Cilcain (no.112257 in the CCEd database) is preceded by no.112256 John Hughes,Llanymynech and Trefonen
in Oswestry 1821-1822.
I believe(confirm please) that James Henry Thomas Hughes is born in Oswestry circa 1821,J.Spier Hughes in Shropshire circa 1820 and possibly Anna Maria Hughes in Corwen circa 1817.
Then there is a marriage in London(under Canterbury) of John Hughes of Corwen in 1816 to to Anne Maria Horne.
There is also an Anne Maria Horne born in Scotland circa 1887-1888 which I think fits the memorial age/dates.
This area is perilously close to Llansantffraid Glyndyfyrdwy of "John Hughes Jesus College died 1835" fame.
But then again maybe neither of these John Hughes' is who you are looking for...
And then there is Robert Henry Matthews Hughes,1st son of Thomas Hughes of Ruthin,MA Jesus College, born 1814,vicar of Llansantffraid yn Mechan Shropshire from 1846 onward
What headache?..........


Roger

[taidgazacaz]

Just spotted an error in the data I gave you!

John Matthews was a widower, not a batchelor, when he married in July 1785. There's no reference to an earlier marriage at Newmarket. The transcriptions go back to 1700.

[despair]

If you want some bedtime reading on Hughes and the nobility,including a vicar of Cilcain(1809-26) and Robert Henry Matthews Hughes as per my last post, plus coats of arms go to :-

www.happywarrior.org/genealogy/pedigree.htm#8

On second thoughts don't-you might not get to sleep................

Roger

[trimochyn]

Wow...

I think I've come across that dissertation before in slightly different form, but nice pictures...! Don't think he's got the Llansantffraid yn Mechain bit right, though - Robert Henry Matthews Hughes lived into the 20th Century but I don't think he had time to do all that! He'd have had to be 120 or so when he died... Plus he was a cousin of my ggf and I think the family would have remembered if he was that well connected. The Thomas Hughes of Ruthin School angle intrigued me for a bit but it's wishful thinking, as far as I can tell.

Like the Anne Maria Horne angle, though. To be investigated. Corwen is right next door to Llansantffraid Glyn Dyfyrdwy, so there's the CCED rector accounted for. Another coincidence?

It's an ungodly tangle, all right.

re your last post,

Yes, James H T Hughes was born in Oswestry in c 1821. I've been chewing over the Oswestry connection as well. Trouble is, the only thing I definitely know about Robert (gggf) is that he was born in Ruthin, as that is consistently on every census, unlike his age, which varies.

Thanks for all your help - I hope you're finding something of interest in all of this, and it isn't just selfless toil in the fields of Hughes...

Pip

[trimochyn]

This might be a bit of wishful thinking, but...

Could Anne Maria Horne be Anne Maria Vaughan, as transcribed by bored/deaf/careless cleric?

[despair]

I doubt it.It surely wouldn't carry through other family connections.
Just to be absolutely clear,what is the earliest point you have irrefutable evidence for the identity/connections of (the earliest?)Robert Hughes and what ,if any, connection with census data(please specify)

Roger