Author Topic: a real puzzle  (Read 6195 times)

Offline slightlyfoxed

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a real puzzle
« on: Saturday 07 May 05 13:21 BST (UK) »
has anyone got any ideas? I have a 4x great grandfather who was a Baptist minister. His orbituary said he had an excessivly large family BUT we can find no trace of any of them in the local parish records.  Surely a Minister would have baptised his children even as adults. I believe that Baptists  dip their believers as adults rather than as babies but even so where might they have they got to?? his ministry dates were 1779-1816.
Pomeroy in London & Liverpool , Pomery near Launceston Cornwall, Shearer of Thurso, Moore in Colchester and Hornblow in Braintree Essex, Machin in Hackney & Stafford & Cook in Herts, Campbell, Sutherland, Mackay, Brotchie, Gunn in Thurso Caithness. Cadle in South Africa.

researching the Pomeroy Family of Collaton in Newton Ferrers and St Columb in Cornwall

Offline Valda

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Re: a real puzzle
« Reply #1 on: Saturday 07 May 05 13:37 BST (UK) »
Baptists were not big on record keeping and the survival rate of any records is not brilliant. Some chapels did have the equivalent of 'parish' records which entered children into the church (but not baptised) and others if the minutes of the church have survived may mention them there, but those records aren't indexed. You would not find any entries in Anglican parish registers.
If you know when your Baptist Minister died then I would look for a will.
Regards
Valda
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline lizdb

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Re: a real puzzle
« Reply #2 on: Saturday 07 May 05 13:39 BST (UK) »
They wont be in the parish records - because they are by definition records of baptisms etc in the Parish (CofE) church.
A baptist would not have his babies baptised (christened) at the Parish church. The decision as to whether to be baptised or not would be taken by them, not their parents, when they are older. So the children may or may not have been baptised at some stage in their lives, either at their Dad's church or elsewhere, it would not be up to their dad, but their own decision.  (Yes, it would normally be by full immersion!)
Some records of non conformist churches (that's those other than CofE) are sometimes held at record offices - you would need to contact the appropiate Local Record Office to see what they held.
I wonder if the Baptist Union, Didcot, Oxfordshire, (sort of head office of Baptist churches) has any info non former ministers?
Edmonds/Edmunds - mainly Sussex
DeBoo - London
Green - Suffolk
Parker - Sussex
Kemp - Essex
Farrington - Essex
Boniface - West Sussex

census information is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline slightlyfoxed

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Re: a real puzzle
« Reply #3 on: Saturday 07 May 05 14:00 BST (UK) »
Aaah! a light dawns! Thanks for all that. Makes it clearer. The gentleman in question was John Hornblow and he died in 16 June 1816 in Braintree Essex where he'd been Minister for some 36 years. Too early for the probate office to have anything. It would be brilliant to find his will. The Braintree Baptist register 1785-1816 were searched some time ago by a researcher and nothing Hornblow found .
He was said to have been born in Halstead in 1743 to a Cof E family but we havnt been able to find him there 1740 -1744 either ! All very frustrating!
Pomeroy in London & Liverpool , Pomery near Launceston Cornwall, Shearer of Thurso, Moore in Colchester and Hornblow in Braintree Essex, Machin in Hackney & Stafford & Cook in Herts, Campbell, Sutherland, Mackay, Brotchie, Gunn in Thurso Caithness. Cadle in South Africa.

researching the Pomeroy Family of Collaton in Newton Ferrers and St Columb in Cornwall


Offline Valda

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Re: a real puzzle
« Reply #4 on: Saturday 07 May 05 14:37 BST (UK) »
I would check with Essex Record Office to see whether he left a will. Before 1858 wills were probabted in church courts. Essex record office will have any wills probated in the local diocesan court.
They also have a couple of items on the Braintree Baptists.

BRAINTREE BAPTIST CHURCH
Repository: Essex Record Office
Level: Category  Baptist Church records
Level: Fonds  BRAINTREE BAPTIST CHURCH


Reference Code  D/NB 18
Title [BRAINTREE BAPTIST CHURCH]
Scope and Content Introductory Note
The Baptist congregation at Braintree has a long, if at times shadowy, history. According to Strype's Memorials, there was a Baptist congregation at Bocking as early as the reign of Edward VI. A certificate dated 1 February, 1837, in the front of the earliest register of births (D/NB 18/4/1), affirms that the particular Baptist Chapel in Coggeshall Lane, Braintree, was founded 'about the year 1680', although the congregation actually met in premises in Back Lane, then called Sandford Pond Lane. 'Between 1715 and 1760, the Baptist congregations were meeting in a cottage belonging to a Mr. Cartwright... in Coggeshall Lane' [W.F. Quin, A History of Braintree and Bocking, 1981]. By 1760, the cottage had been purchased by the congregation and fitted up as a place of worship. During the ministry of Rev. John HORNBLOW, 1779-1816, the chapel was enlarged to accommodate 400 people, and was rebuilt in 1833 at the expense of £1,882. New school rooms were opened c. 1863.
 
Repository: Essex Record Office
Level: Category  Baptist Church records
Level: Fonds  ELD LANE BAPTIST CHURCH, COLCHESTER
Level: Series  Miscellaneous

Reference Code  D/NB 4/45
Dates of Creation 1767-1782
Extent 1 vol.
Scope and Content Commonplace book
Contains copies of letters, acrostics and verses mainly on devotional themes inc. `Mr HORNBLOWs Ordination at Braintree July 15th 1779', headed `The Letters etc which follow in order from hence were wrote by T S' [Thomas Steevens, minister (1773-1802)] and at back, reversed: `The peices which follow on this end of the book have several authors'; inc. hymns.
 
Date From 1767

A search in Google for John Hornblow gets you
Name: annie randall king <arkart2002@yahoo.com>
Date: 2002-08-24
Comments: 
I have been looking for family members decended from Richard P and Isott webber. I found a 3rd cousin and we between us we have extended the family of Augustus Stephen Jeffery Pomery's wife Sarah Georgina Moore back to Rev John Hornblow although we are still looking for backup & confirmation. SGM mother Sarah Hornblow was married 4 times and left her daughters behind when she married for the 2nd time and sailed away to South Africa with husband John Caudle. See Sarah Forrest's tree.enter sarah hornblow into Google search. We have established SGM dates and several addresses in liverpool for much of the family and have found Edgar Pomeroy with a brother Campbell - as son of Augustus Fred.Brett Pom and Eliz. Jackson We are still trying to establish whether Richard and Isott had other children, we suspect a Richard and a James but this is utterly without confirmation. Anyone with info about Richard Pom who married Francis Ongley Circa 1839 we would be interested to hear from them.

John Hornblow said to have come from Halstead near Braintree. Born circa 1743. wife Elizabeth . Known for having numerous children. Baptist minister Braintree appears to have gone to London where he fell under the spell of the evangelical. Rev A Booth, was married there and sent to the Baptist church in Braintree in 1779, the year he was ordained.
Marriage. There is an IGI marriage for John Hornblow in London to Elizabeth
ELIZABETH YOUNG Marriage: 13 JAN 1775 Saint George Botolph Lane, London, London, England
After his death from a stroke in 1816 his widow Elizabethe returned to London where she died in 1821. She may have had a removal order made against her because she would have been forced to live on the Parish, charity money, being a clergy widow with no income and no home.
possible daughters of John & Elizabeth Hornblow,
Lidia Hornblow married to Edward Haiward 1814 Halstead. ( ref Boyd’s Essex)
Ann Hornblow born 1783 in Bocking . Married 1804 in Bocking to Stephen Brown.
Sarah Hornblow My 4 times g,grandmother born 1789 married George Moore 1810 had 3 children.
Her second marriage was in 1816 after which she went to South Africa where she had 6 further children and 2 more marriages.

Regards
Valda
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline cep

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Re: a real puzzle
« Reply #5 on: Saturday 07 May 05 15:21 BST (UK) »
D/P 264/1/23   1 of 4
Baptisms at St. Michael the Archangel, Braintree


1816 Mar 20
Hannah, d. of John and Elizabeth Hornblow
Abode:  Braintree     Father:  Dissenting Minister

Margin note:    b.  Feb 6, 1795


No other Hornblow baptisms found.


Regards   CP
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Offline cep

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Re: a real puzzle
« Reply #6 on: Saturday 07 May 05 15:45 BST (UK) »
D/P 264/1/34
Marriages at St. Michael, Braintree

1814 Mar 7
Edward Hayward of the parish of Saffron Walden, Bachelor
Lydia Hornblow, spinster, a minor
By Licence, with consent of Parents

Both signed the register.

Witnesses:
Hannah Hornblow
Elizabeth Gray ?
?Athena Hayward
James Andrews
James Thorn
John Collis

Note:  John Collis signs nearly all marriages at this time.


Regards   CP
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline slightlyfoxed

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Re: a real puzzle
« Reply #7 on: Sunday 08 May 05 07:30 BST (UK) »
THANK you, all of you . I had most of the stuff from SEAX and twas me who put in the Looking for John Hornblow thing. The baptism of Hannah adds another family member which is great. We now have Sarah, Anne and Lidia and their marriages and now  Hannah. We also have a Martha who witnessed in 1810 to Sarahs marriage.
I will try ERO for a Will. He seems to have been a rather self important man so I expect he made one but I will check.
Thanks again.
Still Hunting.
Pomeroy in London & Liverpool , Pomery near Launceston Cornwall, Shearer of Thurso, Moore in Colchester and Hornblow in Braintree Essex, Machin in Hackney & Stafford & Cook in Herts, Campbell, Sutherland, Mackay, Brotchie, Gunn in Thurso Caithness. Cadle in South Africa.

researching the Pomeroy Family of Collaton in Newton Ferrers and St Columb in Cornwall

Offline Valda

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Re: a real puzzle
« Reply #8 on: Sunday 08 May 05 08:17 BST (UK) »
He didn't leave a Prerogative Court of Canterbury will (National Archives index online). If he did leave a will then the National Archives will have the Estate Duty payment records (IR 26 and IR27) These detail who got what, their relationship to the deceased (married name if a daughter, sometimes this is the married name after death of deceased so not mentioned in the will) and also often death dates of beneficiaries depending how the estate was left.

Have you also checked the Baptist Historical Society?
http://www.baptisthistory.org.uk/

Regards
Valda
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk