Peter Sabey of Roxton

[bedfordshire boy]

Was he related to Joseph and John Sabey, by marriage would be helpful?!?

Or more pertinent, were Joseph and John Sabey related? If they were I haven't found the connection yet.

Francis Elms was brother in law to Thomas Hartopp, as he was married to Mary Hartopp, and if Mary Sabey was really the daughter of John then Francis Elms appears to have been the father of John's grandson.

[bedfordshire boy]

I wonder who bought the poor boy up after his mother died? It does seem strange tat John the baptist did not mention him in his will.

If Bolnhurst Overseers accounts have survived it might be interesting to see if any payments were being made and to whom - they had a bond from Francis Elms indemnifying them against any maintenance payments that they made. Francis Sabey would only have been around seven when his supposed mother died.

That he wasn't mentioned in his grandfather's will is the weak link in the theory.

[johnP-bedford]

Looked at this bastardy bond this afternoon; dated 14 May 1767 Francis Elms of Bolnhurst, blacksmith is firmly bound to Soloman Safford - church warden & Thomas Russel - overseer to poor, for the amount of £80 regarding obligation toward Mary Saby of Bolnhurst, single woman who declared on oath that she is with child, & child is likely to be born bastard & that Francis Elms is father of child. In presence of French ? Flanders & Thomas Claridge

[bedfordshire boy]

I had the burial Mary Sabey d of J of Bolnhurst burial 23 Nov 1774 and as there did not seem to be a baptism for Mary I wondered if she could be either the daughter of John who was NC or Joseph who was possibly NC. Now it seems that she was probably the d of John the Baptised which does appear to be a 'leap forward' for Francis!

I can find just the four Sabey burials in Thurleigh - John of Bolnhurst, his wife Elizabeth, their son William, and Mary "daughter of J of Bolnhurst". I think it reasonable to assume that these are all one family - the non-conformists from Bolnhurst. As such, despite the lack of a baptism linking Mary to John and Elizabeth, the burial evidence provides it. When John gave me the details of this burial years ago I first thought that "daughter of J of Bolnhurst" indicated that Mary was a child, but I now, in the light of the Bastardy Bond, think it indicated merely that she was a daughter, albeit an unmarried adult.

[johnP-bedford]

Charlotte White’s mother Elizabeth Elms may have been baptised; Elizabeth Elms d of Thomas and Elizabeth bap 9 Nov 1735 at Bolnhurst Beds. Although the IGI gives her mother as Elizabeth, I think this may be an error as all of the other children of Thomas Elms baptised between 1725-1741 in Bolnhurst give the mother as Ann (probably nee Wyott)

I agree this is a transcription error, Elizabeth's parents were Thomas & Ann Elms, Thomas Elms, carpenter married Ann Wyatt at Bolnhurst on 3 Oct 1723. They baptised 10 children at Bolnhurst 1724 to 1741 & buried 4 of them. Thomas buried 1751 & widow Ann on 14 July 1756. In her will dated 5 June 1756 she leaves 2/6 to son John; all household goods to daughters Elizabeth, Mary & Ann; one Ewe & one lamb to son Francis; & all the rest to son Thomas Elms who is also executor. Why the eldest son John 1726 didn't get the lot & it went to Thomas 1734 is unknown? The will was proved 31 July 1756 witnessed by William Milton, Joseph Archs & John Peck.   

[johnP-bedford]

Francis Sabey was baptised as an adult in 1790, at the same time as he married. The vicar may have insisted on it as he was under target that year, and he'd not have got his performance related bonus if he missed his target. He was said to be aged about 30. If he'd have been asked his age surely he'd have said 30 or 27 or whatever. "About 30" sounds like the vicar's guesstimate.
On burial his age was given as 67, implying a birth in 1766. Again though, the age is someone else's idea, so may be inaccurate

I agree the 'age about thirty years' stated on Francis Sabey's baptism on 15 Nov 1790 is guesswork, I suspect the vicar told him he wouldn't get married on that date unless he was baptised & the vicar also knowing he was the bastard son of Francis Elms & Mary Saby born just after May 1767. Also with both parents being dead Francis Elms in 1780 & Mary Saby in 1774, plus step mother perhaps Mary ne Hartop buried 1776 who was about to verify his age. If you take his age of 67 at burial on 15 Nov 1790 you get 1766 which tallies near enough to his birth. Who would have given that age at that time? if it was widow Charlotte, would she had said "well he must be as old as I am because we grew up together"  While you feel might be inaccurate, compare this with burial at age 76 on 2 Apr 1843 of his widow Charlotte making her born 1767 which does tally with her birth/baptism, daughter of Rubythan & Eliabeth White.

My conclusion is that Francis Sabey is bastard son of Francis Elms & Mary Saby - but who can prove it, that's another matter.     

[Hemmum]

John. Thank you for your help, really brilliant!

Ann Elms buried on 14 July 1756. In her will dated 5 June 1756 she leaves 2/6 to son John; all household goods to daughters Elizabeth, Mary & Ann; one Ewe & one lamb to son Francis; & all the rest to son Thomas Elms who is also executor.

Shame Ann did not mention her illegitimate grandchild!

[bedfordshire boy]

Shame Ann did not mention her illegitimate grandchild!

He wasn't born for another 10 years!

[bedfordshire boy]

In her will dated 5 June 1756 she leaves 2/6 to son John; all household goods to daughters Elizabeth, Mary & Ann; one Ewe & one lamb to son Francis; & all the rest to son Thomas Elms who is also executor. Why the eldest son John 1726 didn't get the lot & it went to Thomas 1734 is unknown?

Probably because John had already been looked after - if there was real property involved that could have all been settled on him outside the will. He was given half a crown as a token amount to show that he'd not been overlooked