Author Topic: Naturalization papers  (Read 4231 times)

Offline Hines001

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Naturalization papers
« on: Monday 14 November 11 01:53 GMT (UK) »
Hi

I have come to a bit of a stand still in my family tree

I have found out that my great great great grandfather was born in Germany (Germany, BS was listed on 1 record i found) but apart from that am completely at a loss as to how to continue researching him. I was thinking of Naturalization papers but have no idea how to go about this.

The information I have so far is:

Joseph Hien (changed to Hines when he lived in the UK)
born 1821
died 1890

Fathers Name: Christian Hien who was born approx 1800

Married Mary Ann Silver 18 June 1854 in St. Jude, Whitechapel, Middlesex, England

They had 4 Children:
Joseph Hines 1855
John Joseph Hines 1860
Mary Ann Hines 1866
Frederick Hines 1868

If anyone could point me in the right direction on how to research this further i would really appreciate it

Thanks
Craig
Bermondsey, Hines, Hien, London

Offline JustinL

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Re: Naturalization papers
« Reply #1 on: Monday 14 November 11 12:53 GMT (UK) »
Hello Craig,

In which year was Joseph recorded as a British Subject, and more importantly, was he classified as a naturalized BS?

Are you certain about the original German spelling?

Hien is pronounced Heen; whereas Hein is pronounced Hine. Both surnames exist in Germany today.

Justin

Offline Hines001

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Re: Naturalization papers
« Reply #2 on: Monday 14 November 11 13:30 GMT (UK) »
Hi Justin

I am pretty sure of the surname change although i don't know when this happened as his marriage records still state Hien which i found here https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.2/97M6-1LT/p1

I found a record of him in the 1871 & 1881 census which stated BS, Germany as his birth place.

Like i said i'm really stumped with this and have no idea how to go on with it.

Thanks
Craig
Bermondsey, Hines, Hien, London

Offline JustinL

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Re: Naturalization papers
« Reply #3 on: Monday 14 November 11 14:33 GMT (UK) »
Hello Craig,

What did it say in 1861?

Do you possess the marriage certificate?

Justin


Offline Hines001

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Re: Naturalization papers
« Reply #4 on: Monday 14 November 11 15:03 GMT (UK) »
I couldn't find them on the 1861 census, which doesn't mean they are not there i'm just not very good at looking on there  ???

No i do not have the marriage certificate yet but i have applied for it.

Thanks again
Craig Hines
Bermondsey, Hines, Hien, London

Offline Pastmagic

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Re: Naturalization papers
« Reply #5 on: Monday 14 November 11 15:06 GMT (UK) »
hi there, I took a look at the 1871 again - what it actually says is BS Germany.
I am now wondering if this was my over interpretation on your previous thread about Elizabeth Jane Ward. - so there are three possibilities -  If BS means British subject - does it mean born in Germany of British parents, or born a German and became British? Or does the BS mean something completely different? I had two instances of BS like this meaning British Subject, so i may be reading something in.

With the 1881 the BS is added later, and is transcribed as (B S), Germany in the AN*******Y, even though it comes after the word Germany.

PM

Offline Hines001

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Re: Naturalization papers
« Reply #6 on: Monday 14 November 11 19:11 GMT (UK) »
To be honest I really am not sure it is totally confusing me.

I did search for BS, Germany and came up with BS standing for Braunschweig, but i really don't know if this is what it is for or not.

Probably going to be to hard to find much out with what little info i have which is kind of disappointing.

Thanks everyone for all the help though
Craig
Bermondsey, Hines, Hien, London

Offline jorose

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Re: Naturalization papers
« Reply #7 on: Monday 14 November 11 23:00 GMT (UK) »
BS = "British Subject" = either his father was British (mothers didn't count, at this period in time), or he had naturalised, or neither of the above is true and the census info is misleading/incorrect.

There is something very important regarding this last option in the General Report of the 1891 census, bolding mine:

Quote
Foreigners by nationality as well as birth

The English Census takes cognisance of birth-places, but not of nationalities, with this exception, that persons who, though born abroad, are yet British subjects are directed to state this fact on their schedules. This, however, they frequently neglect to do; and, consequently, the "persons born in foreign states and not declared to be British subjects" are doubtlessly in excess of the real number of those who arc foreigners both by birth and nationality. To remedy this, it was the practice in former censuses to have recourse to the aid of surnames; and the abstracting clerks were instructed to consider all persons born abroad in European countries, who had distinctly English surnames, to be British subjects, even if no statement to that effect was made on their schedules.

There are, however, clearly very grave objections to this proceeding. How is the clerk to decide what is a distinctly British name? There are many surnames common to, England and foreign countries; and, even when there is some slight difference of spelling between the English name and its foreign equivalent, this is very likely to disappear when the entry is transcribed by the enumerator; Muller to become Miller, Schmidt to become Smith.

It was, therefore, thought wiser in the present Census to discard altogether this unsatisfactory attempt at rectification, and to deal with. the returns as they were made to us leaving the responsibility upon those to whom it properly belonged, namely, the individuals who filled up the schedules.

So in 1871 and 1881, the "BS" added later could have been the work of an abstracting clerk (the fellow whose job it was to tot up the statistics) who considered "Joseph Hines" to be a British name. It does look to me like in 1871 it is also not part of the original birthplace.

The marriage certificate may give you more clues, particularly his address, and the witness names.  People did tend to travel in groups so he might have had relatives or friends in London who he traveled with or who were there before he came.
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Pastmagic

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Re: Naturalization papers
« Reply #8 on: Tuesday 15 November 11 10:31 GMT (UK) »
Hi Jorose,
Thanks for that useful info, I think it clarifies things - it was the clearly different "look" of BS on the 1871 that made me thing there might have been something odd about it.

The marriage cert is the best bet - as you say, it may give more detail. Have looked through the 1861 for Joseph and father to no avail - in case Christian also came to UK, severl possible Josephs, but none obvious, at least to me.
To be honest I really am not sure it is totally confusing me.

Craig, it often takes a bit of time to puzzle out ancestors who were not born in the uk, not to mention confusion,  and there is always the odd brick wall!
In the meantime, while you are waiting for the cert, how far have you got with Mary Ann Angel and Caroline Ward, the two grandmothers?
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,566177.msg4186006.html#msg4186006
PM