ROSE Family from St Albans

[alan.h]

Thanks very much for your comments.

Charles Rose was my 2x great-grandfather. He was born in Chesham, but had moved to St Albans by the time of Alfred (my great-grandfather)'s birth in 1875:
1871  Grocer, living at 64 High Street Chesham
1875  Brushmaker, living at Spencer St, St Albans
1881  Brushmaker,living at 15, Verulam Rd, St Albans
1891 - living at 117 Stanhope Rd, St Albans
1901 - living at 135 Stanhope Rd, St Albans (retired)

It was Alfred Rose that I was referring to in the original post. He married Lillian Wilson - in St Albans in 1899 - and it is something of a mystery as to how or why she was in St Albans!

Your mention of a prison is probably a coincidence but is interesting since she had been born at Woking Prison, where her father was a warder. By 1881, the family were in Clerkenwell - with Robert Wilson still being listed as  a prison warder. (From the address I am thinking that he probably worked at either Cold Bath Fields or the Middlesex House of Correction, but I am waiting to hear back from the London Metropolitan Archives to see if any records have survived which might confirm this).

Robert died in 1883, leaving a wife and three young children. Lillian's mother, Louisa, then died in 1887. Both died from chest diseases, which I wouldn't mind betting were contracted from the prisoners. Incidentally, Robert's mother re-married, to the horse keeper at Fulham Prison, so living near to St Albans Prison would probably have made Lillian feel at home!

At the time of their marriage, Lillian lived at 8 Sandridge Rd, St Albans, where I am guessing she was 'in service' as I cannot see any other reason why she would so far away from her only close relative - her grandfather, who lived near Guildford. 

There seems to be a Methodist church in Hatfield Road, which is quite near the addresses given in 1891 and 1899, so I would think it likely that was originally a Wesleyan Chapel(?) and the place where they married

Lillian's sister, May Wilson, had already married Thomas Harris (the other stained glass worker) in 1896 and in 1901 they were living at 3 Culver Road, St Albans.

Any further thoughts or comments would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks,
Alan

[[Ray]]

Hi

Shall we attempt to clear something up?

The Stanhope Road addresses for 1891 & 1901 are physically the same house, Ivyleigh.
The family did not move house between the 1891 and 1901 census.
 
"117" and "135" are the census dwelling numbers not the address.


I also believe there may have been a church in Stanhope Road.
If you look at the Streetmap current view of Stanhope Road there is a marking for a church halfway along the "northwestern" side. The church doesn't seem to be there now.


Ray

[alan.h]

Thanks.

I'm afraid that Francis Skeat would have been a generation later, as he wasn't born until 1909. I need to keep searching on that one.

Alan

[[Ray]]

Hi alan.h

The reason I mentioned Skeat was in case there was anything pinpointing his premises, you never know.
Skeat may have been part of (the next generation of) a family firm.......... employing a Mr Rose .......


The Hatfield Road Methodist Church seems to have been built by the Methodists circa 1898.
http://www.hatfieldroadmc.greenisp.org/history.htm
Summarised as "Open air" followed by "inside shoe factory" then "Continuing industrial development in the area meant that the local population was increasing and the old shoe factory was soon outgrown.  An iron building was put up on a small site in Hatfield Road and opened in March 1898.  However, by the early 1900s, this was already inadequate and, in 1906, a new ‘tin tabernacle’ church was opened for worship on the current site, followed by a brick-built church in 1929.  "


Do you have a copy of that marriage certificate?


R

[[Ray]]

However............

1861 RG9 845 page10 Broadway

Charles19 is living with his parents John44 Harriet45 (+Richard11 +Catherine3) in Chesham both males are brushmakers.

and they are surrounded by shoemakers (brush makers in a shoe factory?)

Yet another coincidence, next door are George & Emma Nash
You don't suppose Charles married a sister of George?

Looks like Jane Nash is living a few doors away (Page13) servant to Mr King next door to the Orange Tree pub.

... and on page 16
Henry Rose37 (Ironmonger & Baker) +full family



R

Couldn't spot Charles/Jane in 1871 but there is a George/Jane(Grocer/Baker but wrong age)
What is the 1871 reference?

[alan.h]

Hi Ray,

Thanks for that. On Ancestry at least Charles & Jane Rose and the children have their surname transcribed as 'Bose' in 1871. The reference is:
Country: England/ Registration district: Amersham/ Sub-registration district: Chesham/ ED, institution, or vessel: 4/ Household schedule number: 64/ Piece: 1393/ Folio: 61/ Page Number: 14

Charles's mother, Harriet, in fact has a very interesting pedigree.... and that too leads back to Hertfordshire! I'm going 'off topic' but its taken a few years to find where her father came from. Significantly, both Harriet and her father, John, have the middle name 'Smith' and the surname 'Hewett'. Harriet was the eldest child and her brother, Charles, had the middle name 'Hollingsworth'. I spent ages searching around Chesham and then Reading, where Charles settled. It now seems that John Smith Hewett was the son of another John Hewett and his wife, Jemimah Hollingsworth. Jemimah was the daughter of Thomas Hollingsworth, who came from a long line of butchers... the line leading back to Ware, where he was born in 1738 and then to Benington where Smith Hollingsworth was born in 1704. Smith was the son of Elizabeth Smith and John Hollingsworth (who, according to a story on Ancestry had butcher's stall as Hertford and Ware markets).  Literally only yesterday I saw that Ancestry have put lots of City of London records online and sure enough there are Thomas, and his brother William, Hollingsworth being given the freedom of the city when they completed their apprenticeships as butchers in the mid 1700's. There is then a strong non-conformist line running through the generations too - which may be a series of coincidences (or not). Thomas Hollingsworth was buried at Bunhill Fields Burying Ground - apparently a famous non-conformist graveyard just outside the old city of London. In Chesham many of the marriages and christenings are in Baptist and Independant chapels and churches... which is partly why I am curious about Alfred Rose and Lilian Wilson's wedding having been in the Wesleyan chapel in St Albans. Lilian's sister, May, for example married Thomas Harris (the other stained glass worker) in St Peter's Church, St Albans on 19 Sept 1896.... orthodox 'established church'/ CofE; so the Wesleyan connection looks to have come from the Roses. (Charles Rose and Jane Nash had married in the Baptist Chapel back in Chesham) ... and the Nashes were butchers too. There are certainly some recurring themes here.

I do have a copy of that marriage certificate and the marriage 'was solemnized at the Wesleyan Chapel in the district of St Albans in the county of Hertford'. I did find the website you refer to but, although several phone numbers were given, I could not see an e-mail address to direct an enquiry to. I don't think that phoning the minister to ask about the history of the place would go down very well! (.... but it might come to that)

To be continued.....

[alan.h]

The mother of Alfred Rose (born in 1875 in Chesham) was Jane Nash:
1851 - living with family in Market Place, Chesham (transcribed as 'Jake')
1861 - living in as a servant in Chesham
1871 - (listed as Bose) with family in High Street, Chesham
(George Nash born 1796 listed as a lodger with the family)
1875 - living at Spencer St, St Albans
1881 - living at 15, Verulam Rd, St Albans
1891 - staying with Sarah (sister) in Chesham
1901 - living at 135 Stanhope Rd, St Albans
1911 -  still living in St Albans
(Unable, so far, to find correct death record)

Her father, William, was a butcher.... and his father, John, was a farmer. John Nash's second wife (so not the mother of William) was Sarah Warner and several publically available trees give her mother as Sarah Hollingsworth, born in 1754 in Cottered, Herts. That line leads back to c1603 and an Aaron Hollingsworth, presumed to be from Cottered, who married Mary Prior at St Mary's, Hitchin, Herts on 10 May 1628.

I am less sure of this Hollingsworth line than I am of the one that leads back from Harriet Smith Hewett, but it would be bizarre if two Hollingsworth lines from Hertfordshire converged in this way across in Chesham!

Any thoughts would (again) be greatly appreciated.

Thanks again,
Alan

[[Ray]]

Hi

Death Regd QtrDec 1949 Watford 4b 238 Alfred J Rose aged 74 ?


http://www.rootschat.com/links/0hxd/
..... describes the small area around Stanhope Road


R

Please read note about 135 Stanhope Road

[alan.h]

Lilian Rose died in Finchley in 1953 and Alfred in Sanderstead, Surrey in 1962.

I haven't yet found the right records for Charles or Jane (both born in 1842) Rose, Alfred's parents.