WHITE/PAYNE in St Albans?

[CFP39]

Hi

Have a little bit of a problem but will give you a summary of the family first!   

James Payne (13/10/1847 - 18/3/1896) and his wife, Ann, (7/1/1852 - 14/1/1896) were both from Rickmansworth families, their 1st 3 children - William 1871, Ada Jane 1874 and James 1875 were all born there. 
Sometime between 1875 and 1881 they moved to Speen, Newbury, where 3 more children were born - Florence Ann 1884, Edwin Francis 1887 and Jessie 1890.
In February 1893 James junior enlisted in Royal Berkshire Reg. & signed for 21 years.
In 1894 Ada Jane married Edward White, of Newbury.
Then in 1896 both Ann and then James senior died.

So we come to my missing info!
What happened to the children?  William is the one that I know least about.  Have no definite information on him after the 1891 CR!  There is one of the correct age in 1901 but claims born in Newbury.
Ada Jane is safely married and producing children, although they seemed to have moved around a lot.
James jnr is in the army and gets married later that year.
Florence I have been unable to identify and, as she was 16/17 by the 1901 CR, was possibly in service. But was she too young, at 12, to do so immediately?  She married in 1923.
The youngest, Jessie, was with her Uncle & Aunt in both 1901 & 1911 CRs and went on to marry in 1915.  She stayed in the Newbury area and died there in 1958.
Which leaves Edwin Francis, in 1901 CR  there is an Edward (sic) F Payne aged 14 - Page Boy, Domestic in the St Peters Rural area of Hertford.  Edward & Ada White are recorded in the same area, so am assuming that they looked after him when his parents died.
I know, from family talk, that he entered the regular army before WW1, that for a while he was in Dublin at the same barracks as his elder brother.  He was killed 26/10/1914 and his name is on the Menin Gate Memorial. Looking to fill in his time in France a bit I found that he was referred to as 'of St Albans'.  So I recently looked to see if he was on their War Memorial.  He was there and his details were entered on the website together with family details which I know aren't on CWGC site.  Am fairly sure that the information must have come from a family member as they had made the mistake of leaving out William!  So think there must be some White descendants around, possibly in St Albans.

So, if you have stayed with me, any small extra details welcome! 

Have recently obtained more army photos of my grandfather but none of Edwin so far.

Thank you for your patience
Regards
Lee

[t mo]

hi lee
all i can offer is a 1901 cen for a william payne age 29 occ cotton weaver born st albans
elizabeth payne 28  born blackburn
bertha payne 9
ethel payne 8
florrie payne 6
minnie payne  3
bessie  1 
all children born earby thornton  yorkshire
address 43 aspen lane  thornton in craven earby west riding yorkshire
like you can,t find anything concrete for florence
have done a search for edwin in service /pension records but nothing there but have found a census record for him which i will pm to you as i,m not allowed to post it up here .
regards
trevor

[jillbwhit]

hi Lee forgive me but I'm new to this,was the information that trevor gave what you were looking for as Im the grandaughter of ethel payne regards Jill

[CFP39]

Hi Jill

Welcome to Rootschat!  Don't think that we are related!

I've no information to suppose that my William moved to Yorkshire.  Also it looks as if that William & Elizabeth were married by the time of 1891 Census Return, while my William was still with his parents.

If you are researching your Payne tree I hope it doesn't take you as long as it has taken me!

Good luck.

Regards Lee

[jimona1965]

Edward White is my great grandfather and Ada Jane is my great grandmother

They had many children: Norman, (Stanley) James my grandfather, Raymond Lionel, Edwin Frances, Gwendolen May, Wilfred Gordon, Elsie kathleen, Vera alexander and Dorothy Millicent.
My father Stuart James, newly deceased, mentioned that some of his uncles moved to Australia, New Zealand and Canada.
My grand father Stanley James married Beatrice Simmons and they lived in Harpenden with their 2 daughters Marion and Joan and son Stuart James.

I believe going back that Ada Janes father, James Payne was son of Joseph and Nancy - have been unable to go further back.

Edward White was son of Thomas White - mother is unknown to me - Thomas White was son of James and Eliza White, Chievely, Berkshire. Apparently James White is son/grandson?  of Isaac and/or James White who were tailors known for tailoring the Newbury coat  - I havn`t been able to find information linking the 2 yet, but seems pretty likely as they are from same area.

regards James White
 

[CFP39]

Hi James - Welcome to Rootschat (& my family tree)! 

So you are my 2nd cousin once removed.  You are the third cousin who has contacted me on this site! 
I can help with ancestors of Joseph & Nancy as I've got back to James & Ada's great great grandparents (with birth and marriage certificates where available)!  When you have made 3 posts we will be able to exchange PMs (private messages) & e mail addresses, if you like.

I had pieced together possible children of Edward & Ada Jane, which correspond with those you mention but have also got Ronald (b. 1905) & Ada Winifred (b. 1906).  Are these correct?
My father (b. 1897) wasn't a lot of help with family details but he did say that his mother used to take him to visit his White relatives when he was young.  She drove a horse & trap (or something similar) from Reading.  Possibly it was a hired one as I don't expect they would have enough use for one in town to warrant the expense.  So he probably met your grandfather as a child.

I'm putting together my grandfather's story, his siblings, descendants and ancestors, into one document, with photos where available.  This will be for family members only, so will be able to include recent events.  It also makes it simpler, if I have to make any corrections, if I know who has the 1st version.  If you can give me any further information on Edward & Ada and their descendants to include I would be grateful.  Photos a bonus! 

BTW Edward registered the death of Ada's mother.

As you don't mention William Payne I assume that you haven't heard of him either. 

Thanks for contacting me
Regards
Lee

[jimona1965]

Ok  - hello cousin !

Thanks for all the information and yes would be nice to exchange details.

Yes i forgot to mention Ronald and Ada Winifred.

Nope no further information on William..

I have a picture of Ada Jane as a young lady.

Regards Jim

[CFP39]

Hi Jim

I've got the Payne tree going only recently (with 1911 CR) as I was sent off on the wrong track by the family story that he was born in Newbury area.  Didn't help that on 1881 CR he was put down as 'Georgina', and I didn't check the same family on 1891 CR!     That and the fact that he wasn't with his wife & family on 1901 CR.

I'm looking forward to seeing what Ada Jane looked like.  Do you know anything about Edwin (Ted) Francis Payne?  He was living near to Edward & Ada in 1901 and I have assumed that they took him in when he was orphaned.  He joined the army and was killed in 1914.

Going back to the ancestors - for a start, I take it that you didn't find Joseph/Nancy marriage?
Joseph Payne (green grocer) married Nancy Gurney on 29/7/1844 at Hillingdon, Middlesex.
His father was also Joseph & a green grocer.  Her father was James Gurney a miller.
They had 9 children 1844 - 1862.

Too much information to want to re type it all! 

So if you can wait a little..........

Regards
Lee

[jimona1965]

I'm looking forward to seeing what Ada Jane looked like.  Do you know anything about Edwin (Ted) Francis Payne?  He was living near to Edward & Ada in 1901 and I have assumed that they took him in when he was orphaned.  He joined the army and was killed in 1914.

Hi Lee,

I will ask my aunt, Marion White (Garrett) if she knows/has heard mention about him, I would imagine my grandfather knew him well - he also was in the merchant navy as a radio officer at the tender age of 17 in 1917, he sailed in the atlantic convoys between Boston and Murmansk, I have a picture of him in his uniform - fortunately he survived the war.
I have some other old pictures too of my grandad as a child, and others too, with many whom I still need to identify.   

Will be great to see the family tree - I have a tree on myheritage ( drawback is that it is in Norwegian language setting ) I will send you link.

We used to live in London Rd, St. Albans when I was a child (1965 - 1972), Mum and Dad had a grocers shop there so history repeats itself

Regards Jim