Catholic baptism - no mother's details? - COMPLETED

[DebbieDee]

I have recently found two possible baptisms for one of my brick walls.  Have been searching for years for a Jane Carroll daughter of James born in Liverpool c1876. 

So after discovering that if the family were catholic (family rumour ) I should instead be looking for Joanna Carroll daughter of Jacobus/i I have the following:

6 Jul 1876 Joanna Carroll filia Jacobi et Helena Carroll olim Carr

23 Jan 1877 Joanna Carroll filia Jacobi Carroll

Both baptised at St Alban's Church Liverpool by the same priest. 

I think the first one is very likely mine but don't want to ignore the second one without looking into it further.

My main question is what reasons would there be for no mention of a mother in the baptism record? 

I have come across this a couple of times for C of E baptisms but they have been much earlier.   

[Billyblue]

A lot of old B & D records record only the father - as if the mother had nothing to do with the person being here!

Dawn M

[Eyesee]

A lot of old B & D records record only the father - as if the mother had nothing to do with the person being here!

Dawn M

Leeds St Peter, the main Anglican Parish Church in Leeds is a classic example of this.

No mother's name listed in any baptisms. If the wife died her name is not listed but shown as wife of - her name may be listed if she was a widow. One good thing though in the burials is a child being named and given as son/daughter of -

Ian C

[Alexander.]

A lot of old B & D records record only the father - as if the mother had nothing to do with the person being here!

The first part is true of early baptisms (mostly pre-1800), but we are talking about the 1870s here.

The reason mothers may not have been recorded in early records was not necessarily because mothers were thought to be unimportant or irrelevant. Families were in general headed by males, so when the records were taken it was sufficient to simply record the father. Adding additional information like mother's name served no useful purpose at that time. Remember that records were not kept to appease future family historians. I'm not saying it was fair or right, just let's be careful not take things out of their historical context.

Sorry to digress...
As I say, we are in the 1870s in this case, and the vast majority of baptism records from this period name both parents. In this case I wonder if it may be that the mother was not Catholic, or she was not present at the ceremony so her details were not entered, or simply not known when the register was completed? I'm sure there are other perfectly innocent reasons as well.

It might be that the birth certificate for that Jane may be the only way to work out which Jane is yours - and even then there's no guarantee that it will help.

Alexander

[DebbieDee]

Thank you all for the replies 

Very interesting Freckneale.  I was thinking along similar lines.  Same priest and church only a few months apart, I think there must be a specific reason for the omission of the mother's details. 
I am very impressed with the amount of detail given on the Catholic baptism records compared to the mainly Anglican baptisms I've dealt with up until now. 

I am going to have to take the plunge and send for the first one's birth certificate aren't I?  I have an occupation for James but it is from Jane's marriage when she was 32 so he may not have been doing the same thing when she was born.  Hopefully it will help me to find at least one parent in the census.  Have so far been unable to find Jane in 1881.  There is a married James Carroll with the right job on a ship in Liverpool in 1881.  Will now look for Jane with her mother Ellen?

 

[Galium]

I think that the second Jane is the daughter of James Carroll and Rachael née Marks.  James is a clog sole maker

You will find this family in 1881 if you look for Jane Carrol born Liverpool 1877.  Two other daughters, (Maria) Amelia and Margaret were also baptised at St Albans. 

Perhaps the priest was just careless when he filled in the register for Jane's baptism.

[jds1949]

Might I suggest that if the mother's name was indeed Rachael then a possible reason for the priest not entering the name was that he had no idea how to translate Rachael into a Latin form - I have several baptism entries for a Catholic family where the mother was named Caroline - most have a blank for the mother's name until - finally - the priest decided that "Linae" was the correct form.

jds1949

[Galium]

Could well be, jds1949: there's obviously some uncertainty about recording the name.

Other children of the family were baptised by different priests.  On Maria Amelia's baptism record her mother is 'Rachælis', and on those  of Margaret and  another child named Charles it is just 'Rachael'


Maybe then, the priest who baptised Jane intended to ask someone else how to write it and then forgot.

[DebbieDee]

Thanks for all the replies and sorry I wasn't able to get back on here before now. 

I now have the birth certificate for Jane whose mother was Ellen nee Carr.  Her father was James Carroll - occupation: Stoker so fits with him being a Fireman on the marriage certificate  . 

Because Jane was a twin the certificate even gives a time of birth  .  The address was right by Liverpool Docks so I think my guess that James Carroll was a ship's Stoker/Fireman looks even more likely. 

Two more children were baptised at the same church in May 1879 and November 1881.  The addresses given were 5 and 3 Newport Place.  However, I have been unable to find Ellen or any of the children in the censuses. 

Will have to have a 'stroll' around the area and see if there are any likely relatives there in 1881 as I suppose Ellen could have been visiting family for the births.