Esau & Henty Smith of the Black Patch & the Charlie Chaplin mystery

[sallyyorks]

Ellen Elizabeth Chaplin (nee Smith's) family look relatively unproven

Her father William Smith Born about 1807 in Felixstowe, Suffolk
Her mother Emily (Emma) Smith formerly Bristo
Born 10 Jan 1809 in Kirton, Suffolk, England, United Kingdom

Bristow(e) has been noted in this index "The Traveller – Tinker – Gypsy Surname Index of Great Britain"

Also if we look at Mary Ann Terry. The Terry surname is there too.

Also Jack Hill that wrote a letter to Chaplin claiming he knew Chaplin was born on the Black Patch. The Hill name appears as well

http://www.ausgenealogy.com/Avon/JJGypsyIndex.pdf

Makes you wonder ... all this Romany influence?

The surnames 'Chaplin' ('Suffolk', Yorkshire) and 'Hancock' are in the linked list too, and of course 'Smith'.

[whiteout7]

Wonder if the Chaplin family has ever tried a modern DNA test to try and pin down more evidence of Romany origin?

[panished]

Since the previous post a fellow researcher as well as a search in Newspaper reveals what is Charlie Chaplin's Birth and explains why not found if they were "touring at the time with a show"
(Roy Stockdill-Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer)
 The record is just one paragraph at the very bottom of a long column and it
reads:"BIRTH. - April 15th, the wife of Charles Chaplin, nee Lily Harley, of a
beautiful boy. Mother and son both doing well."

There isn't the slightest doubt that this is a record of Chaplin's birth since
his father was Charles Chaplin senior and his mother Hannah was also on the
stage under the name of Lily Harley.

There are various versions of where Chaplin was born but most accounts give his
birth as 16 April 1889 at Walworth, Surrey. However, this cutting shows the
birth as being a day earlier. He appears with his mother Hannah in the 1891
census, which gives his birth place as Walworth

Hi Sue

Hows things with you, its me michael, a very interesting story about Chaplin, theres a mass of information that as yet to come out, i remember you telling me about how hard it was to do genealogy research years ago, how you would travel to read records, you told me you had paper records that you had transcribed all in a box in an old fastion type of way, in those days i would say you had to be very dedicated, you have helped many people over the yeares i am sure everyone knows that, you are one of the pioneers of these generations i am sure you will be yourself researched by researchers in the future, thank you for the many times that you gave me information from the census records, you do not need to write back, i just wanted everyone to know that i appreciate the efforts that you have done not only for me but for everyone, you have helped people with very strong ancestral trees and then its true you evan gave me your time to, i am sure many people are grateful for the hard work you have done over the yeares. Look after yourself.

[ROMANYGENES]

Hi Michael thankyou for your kind words sorry late reply only just saw it as dont come on here very often ,hope you and your family are well and i see your a good researcher yourself now with all your newspaper info you have the "bug" it does get addictive and as you say so interesting the history side of things keep well and happy x

[panished]

Sue

The family is doing fine, thank you, i was wondering if there was any chance you may still have all the census records that you discovered for me yeares back, i lost everything that i had saved, it is fine if you do not have them, i am not asking you to look again, i would like them to show the younger ones and remember how people are all linked back through bolsover woodsetts Attercliffe, Sheffield, Linconshire,  Derbyshire and Notts plus more places, i have learned that in Gipsy family's no matter who they are big or small famous or not known, well evan if you have a name like Smith,  well your great great grandad or evan dad or gr gr granmar may not be who you thought they were, the real truth may never be found, D.N.A will only make things worse as you get futher back for it may bring up connections that may be used to say you are related in this way when the truth is you could use D.N.A to connect in several ways from several distant family members, it can be made to work and it may sound real, it can be twisted, in time the science of D.N.A will say i was right, remember how you told me people only use the census reports to confirm a family name when truthfully they are not of that family, most times they do not evan know this, i am glad i do not claim to be from nobody only i am the son of my Mother and she was the daughter of her Mother, they all could be just local girls from yeares back who married or had a relationship with someone out of a Gipsy family or a Gipsy Aunt or Uncle link, who knows, they also may be stronger connections, i do not care each way, i intend to try and find out, if you do hold any records still from the Wilsher Wilshaw wiltshire and more names would you please put them on here for me, thank you again for the first time you did all that hard research, if you can not help me i think it is best to just do not write back, remember forever that i  am very gratefully for the times that you helped me in the past, if you cannot help i suppose this will be the last time we talk, you be happy to, think of the young ones who come into this world when we are gone, leave them at least the truth, to many people of the past only thought of how they themselves looked, as they wrote their crooked words, the history of the Gipsies as yet to be wrote, we are all apart of this story, from the House to the Tent, from the Tent to the House, from Broomdashers to Hawkers of Carpits, Earthenwear Dealers and Horsemen of Old, big names, small names, dark hair and blue eyes, light hair and dark eyes, highley connected or scrag ends like me, everyone belongs to the great story of the unique people known as the Gipsies of Britain. Thank you again. xxx

[ROMANYGENES]

Hi Michael yes i do have some of the census etc and other records shall I post on this thread or a different one ?

[ROMANYGENES]

Will post what i have saved most is in order some may be random
1871*Attercliffe cum Darnall/Christchurch-Yorkshire
William Wilshire   50 B Bineton, Lincolnshire Widower Chairbottomer
-----------------------
1861*Ecclesall Bierlow, Yorkshire
Alfred Heaps abt 1836 Snelston, DerbyshireHead/ Hawker
Ellen Heaps abt 1841 Lincoln, LincolnshireWife
Alfred Heaps abt 1868 Varions, DerbyshireSon
Eliza Heaps abt 1861 Varions, DerbyshireDaughter
Ellen Heaps abt 1841 Lincoln, LincolnshireWife
Emma Heaps abt 1863 Varions, Derbyshire Daughter
Henry Heaps abt 1867 Varions, Derbyshire Son
Jane Heaps abt 1858 Daughter
Mary Ann Heaps abt 1860 Varions, Derbyshire Daughter
Selena Heaps abt 1869 Varions, DerbyshireDaughter
/////////////////////////
Joseph Wilshaw 24 hd b Sheffield, Yorkshire
Jane Wilshaw 26 b b Sheffield, Yorkshire
Mary A Wilshaw 3 b Sheffield, Yorkshire
Frederick Wilshaw 1 b Sheffield, Yorkshire
///////
William Holmes 45 hd b Sheffield, Yorkshire
Jane Holmes 29 wife b Barnsley, Yorkshire
Issac Wiltshire 40 lodger b Wombwell, Derbyshire
////////
John Wilshaw 37 hd b Sheffield, Yorkshire
Mary Wilshaw 38 wife b Sheffield, Yorkshire
James Wilshaw 11 son b Sheffield, Yorkshire
Sarah A Wilshaw 8 dau b Sheffield, Yorkshire
Herbert Wilshaw 3 son b Sheffield, Yorkshire
Emily Wilshaw 8 Mo dau b Sheffield, Yorkshire

[ROMANYGENES]

1871*Longdon-   Staffordshire(Other hawkers on page including Heaps)
Joseph Wilshaw   35  b Notts Nottinghamshire hawker
Maria Wilshaw   30 b Wath, Yorkshire hawker
Joseph Wilshaw   6
Thomas Wilshaw   4
Fred Wilshaw   1
----------------------------------------------------------------
1881*Brightside Bierlow, Yorkshire=Street address:19 Slancer St
Joseph Willshaw   37 hawker
Maria Willshaw   32 hawker b Sheffield
Joseph Willshaw   15
Tom Willshaw   14
Fred Willshaw   9
Tim Willshaw   6
William Willshaw   3
Infant Willshaw   
-----------------------------------------------------
1891*
Joseph Welshaw   49 Peddler/Hawker b Ackworth, Yorkshire
Maria Welshaw   42 wife b Sheffield
Jim Welshaw   16
Bill Welshaw   13   All said b Sheffield*
Walter Welshaw   11
Emma Welshaw   6
Henry Welshaw   4
-------------------------------

[ROMANYGENES]

1901: CENSUS* INDEXED AS WILT-SHAW SO DOUBLE BARRELLED!!!
.Nottinghamshire, England Civil parish: Pleasley Ecclesiastical parish: Shirebrook Holy Trinity Town: Shirebrook County/Island: Derbyshire Country:
* Lots there in caravans:+
William Wilt Shaw 21 B Woodsetts, Derbyshire pot hawker
Maria R Wilt Shaw 20 Hul Yorkshire
Rebecca Wilt Shaw 4 Sheffield, Yorkshire
William Wilt Shaw 2 b Notinghamshire
*
Thomas Wilt Shaw 37 b Sheffield, Yorkshire 27 hawker
Margaret Wilt Shaw 20 wife b South Pool, Yorkshire image i think 30?
Emma Willt Shaw 2 months b Sheffield, Yorkshire
Harriett Wilt Shaw 10 b Sheffield, Yorkshire
Julia Wilt Shaw 2 b Sheffield, Yorkshire
Margaret Wilt Shaw 5 b Nottinghamshire,
Mathilda Wilt Shaw 11 b Sheffield, Yorkshire
Thomas Wilt Shaw 7 b Sheffield, Yorkshire
---------------------------------------------
Knight may be related?
Alfred Tyler 35 trav pot higgler b Leics
Lucy Tyler 29 wife b Swadlincote, Derbyshire
*
Walter Knight 33 coal miner b Romsley, Worcestershire
Martha Knight 32 b Brampton, Derbyshire
Ada Knight 2 b Shirebrook, Derbyshire
Leonard Knight 3 months b Shirebrook, Derbyshire
Mary Knight 5 b Brampton, Derbyshire
Robert B Knight 12 b Brampton, Derbyshire
William Knight 8 b Brampton, Derbyshire
**
Joseph Wilt Shaw 56 B Darrington, Yorkshire ( THIS IS HIS DAD?)
Maria H OR k ?.57 wife b Bolsover, Derbyshire
Emma dau 18 BWoodsetts, Derbyshire
Henry 16 SON B Woodsetts, Derbyshire
*
MARRIAGE 1864 ROTHERHAM JOSEPH WILSHAW WED MARIA KNIGHT
---------------------------------------------------------
ARE THESE THE SAME JOSEPH?
1861*
1861*Ecclesall Bierlow, Yorkshire
Joseph Wilshaw 24 hd b Sheffield, Yorkshire
Jane Wilshaw 26 b b Sheffield, Yorkshire
Mary A Wilshaw 3 b Sheffield, Yorkshire
Frederick Wilshaw 1 b Sheffield, Yorkshire
///////
William Holmes 45 hd b Sheffield, Yorkshire
Jane Holmes 29 wife b Barnsley, Yorkshire
Issac Wiltshire 40 lodger b Wombwell, Derbyshire
////////
John Wilshaw 37 hd b Sheffield, Yorkshire
Mary Wilshaw 38 wife b Sheffield, Yorkshire
James Wilshaw 11 son b Sheffield, Yorkshire
Sarah A Wilshaw 8 dau b Sheffield, Yorkshire
Herbert Wilshaw 3 son b Sheffield, Yorkshire
Emily Wilshaw 8 Mo dau b Sheffield, Yorkshire

1871* Longdon, Staffordshire (SLEPT IN FIELD IN CARAVANS)
Joseph Wilshaw 35 b Notts, Nottinghamshire Hawker
Maria Wilshaw 30 b Wath, Yorkshire Hawker
Joseph Wilshaw 6 b Sheffield, Yorkshire
Thomas Wilshaw 4 b Sheffield, Yorkshire
Fred Wilshaw 1b Sheffield, Yorkshire
///////////
Alfred Heaps abt 1836 Snelston, DerbyshireHead/ Hawker
Ellen Heaps abt 1841 Lincoln, LincolnshireWife
Alfred Heaps abt 1868 Varions, DerbyshireSon
Eliza Heaps abt 1861 Varions, DerbyshireDaughter
Ellen Heaps abt 1841 Lincoln, LincolnshireWife
Emma Heaps abt 1863 Varions, Derbyshire Daughter
Henry Heaps abt 1867 Varions, Derbyshire Son
Jane Heaps abt 1858 Daughter
Mary Ann Heaps abt 1860 Varions, Derbyshire Daughter
Selena Heaps abt 1869 Varions, DerbyshireDaughter
///////
David Allen abt 1841 Hepworth Lincolnshire Head Hawker
Elizabeth Allen abt 1863 Sheffield Yorkshire Daughter
Harriett Allen abt 1845 Sheffield Yorkshire Wife
Henry Allen abt 1860 Sheffield Yorkshire Son
/
=============================================
1881*Ecclesall Bierlow, Yorkshire
Joseph Wilshaw abt 1837 Sheffield YorkshireHead Razor hatter?
Jane Wilshaw abt 1836 Sheffield YorkshireWife
Mary A. Wilshaw abt 1858 Sheffield YorkshireDaughter
Charles Wilshaw abt 1875 Sheffield, YorkshireSon
Isaac Wilshaw abt 1866 Sheffield, Yorkshire Son
James Wilshaw abt 1868 Sheffield, Yorkshire Son
Percy Wilshaw abt 1880 Sheffield Yorkshire Grandson
Samuel Wilshaw abt 1873 Sheffield Yorkshire Son
Sarah J. Wilshaw abt 1862 Sheffield Yorkshire Daughter

~~~~~~~~---------
1891*Ecclesall Bierlow, Yorkshire
Joseph Wilshaw 54 b Sheffield, Yorkshire
Jane Wilshaw 56 b Sheffield, Yorkshire wife
Isaac Wilshaw 25 Son
James Wilshaw 23 Son b Sheffield
Samuel Wilshaw 18 Son b Sheffield
Charles Wilshaw 16 Son b Sheffield
Percy Wilshaw 11 g/son b Sheffield, Yorkshire
Fanny Farebrother 15 servant
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
1901*Yorkshire.Ecclesall
Joseph Wilshaw 64 RAZOR GRINDERB Sheffield
Mary S Wilshaw 51 WIFE B Sheffield
Arthur C Middleton 20 step son b Liverpool, Lancashire
Percy Wilshaw 21 GRAND/SON B Sheffield
************************************
This is the Percy above I think in 1911 as right age and birth place?
WILSHAW, Samuel  Head   Married15 years 38 1873    Insurance Agent    Sheffield Yorkshire    
WILSHAW, Florence Wife Married     36 1875    Sheffield Yorkshire    
WILSHAW, Percy Nephew Single    31 1880    Razor Hafter    Sheffield Yorkshire    
WILSHAW, Joseph Son    Single    6 1905       Sheffield Yorkshire    
WILSHAW, Reginald    Son    4 1907       Sheffield Yorkshire    
LEACH, Ivy Guardian    Single    8 1903    Sheffield Yorkshire    

Registration District:Ecclesall Bierlow Sub District:Sharrow Enumeration District:
Address:18 Salmon Street Sheffield Yorkshire England County:Yorkshire (West riding)