FREDERICK JONES, B. CWM, 1827

[francesr]

I have a little on FrederickJones , who was a butcher in High Street, Rhyl, from 1861 census (at least) on. But in the 1851 census he is listed as 24, brother, butcher, living with John Jones (45) and Jemima Jones (29). My query concerns their address in the Cwm registration disctrict: 8 Ochav/ny(?) Marian, which was 8 and a bit acres. The addresses on either side were: 7 Tai Newydd; and the next 9 Marian; and the next 10 Tai Marian. Apparently the farm was sold by Frederick's children c.1900 and may have been subsumed in to another property, or is now built on?
If anyone has any clues as to the location of the farm and what "Ochav/ny" means, (I gather "Marian" is Welsh for moraine;) I'd be most grateful.
Thanks.
Francesr

[despair]

On first inspection these look like addresses between Dyserth and Trelawnyd in Denbighshire,with Marian being at Trelawnyd,and Marian Cwm being between there and Cwm.I will try to get an OS reference for you.

Regards
Roger

[despair]

The address is probably Ochr y Marian.Go to www.old-maps.co.uk,type"ochr y marian" in the search box and select the address.You can then also go to an 1878 1:10500 map and see the area closer to the time of thec census.
Regards
Roger

[despair]

In case you don't have it-Frederick is at the same address in 1841
HO107/1412 18/5
with siblings Thomas and Jemima and presumably mother Susannah.
It looks like brother John is close by with a family called Ellis at Penyffordd
HO107/1412 18/5 4
A reasonable candidate for Frederick's parents and wedding :-
Susannah Jones Tremeirchion Flint Jan 29 1803 to Edward Jones
Regards
Roger

[despair]

Susannah Jones' will(1850) is available online at www.llgc.org.uk where there are details of other daughters but no mention of Frederick or Thomas.
It may not be relevant but there is also a will of George Jones(1816) at Marian.
Regards
Roger

[francesr]

Dear Roger,
Wow, this is wonderful - fancy being all the way here in Australia, and 'some kind person' ie. you, has found all this out, and so quickly too!
Thanks again.
Kind regards,
Francesr

[despair]

I have quite a bit more data now if you want it(including finding one of the daughters mentioned in the will),or do you want the satisfaction of tracing further yourself based on current data?
Regards
Roger

[francesr]

Hi Roger,
Oh yes please, I'd be very grateful. I have a cousin who will be visiting Rhyl and environs later in the year, and the more info we have beforehand, the better she will be able to use her very limited time there.
By the way, do you have the proper pronunciations of "Ochr y marian" and "Cwm"? I have now found that the meaning of the first is 'side of the moraine' - hope that's right?
The maps by the way were brilliant - I have now located the exact acreage. And Susannah Jones' little Will - most poignant. I believe Frederick's mother was Sarah Hughes - in the 1871 census, Frederick in Rhyl, had a servant Edward Hughes.
Frederick's son John Parry, also a butcher of Rhyl, died of 'misadventure' at the age of 33 in 1887. I am wondering if this might have been reported in the local papers?. My cousin could go and check if we knew where these might be located.
Thanks again.
Kind regards,
Francesr

[despair]

Data and speculation on people and property as follows:-
Frederick-What in particular makes you think the one servant in 1871(as there are many through the years) is connected to his mother being a Sarah Hughes.I have no evidence for who his mother was.It does seem strange that Jemima,sole heir in her mother Susannah's will is described in effect as Frederick's sister on the 1851 census yet there is no provision in the will for him(or Thomas who may have died?).Perhaps she thought his occupation as butcher was enough for him...or perhaps he wasn't her son.There is a record of a marriage of John Jones to Sarah Hughes at Halkyn in 1811 which looks interesting...perhaps Sarah and Susannah are synonymous.
Frederick marries Sarah Parry in 1853 and they have 6 or 7 children I can find on the censuses.He dies sometime in the 1890s though I need to revisit that as there appears to be a conflict with his appearance in 1895(below).
Frederick can be seen in simple list form in the Slaters Trade Directories of 1868,1880 and 1895(?see later) at www.historicaldirectories.org
I have not found an accountof his son's death which I thought might be in the North Wales Chronicle.There are options-for another time.

John-He is at RG09 4295 14 9 in 1861 which reveals a link with Jane from the will(later).He marries Arabella Parry in 1865 ,a widow with 2 children from her marriage to Robert Parry in 1854 hence the names in 1871.He dies in 1881.

Jane-I believe she marries Joseph Hill and they have a daughter Susannah who is the niece with John in 1861 and also a son James.I have census refs as necessary.

Jemima-I'm a little uncertain on her fate.She possibly dies in the late 1850s as she is not at the address in 1861 or 1871.However she might correspond as the wife of John Evans who has the same Ochr y Marian address as an Evans family in 1881.If so she marries him in 1859 and  has at least one child and outlives him being at RG12 4626 35 6 in 1891.
(The other Evans family have a son David Delta(!) Evans who has a biography at www.llgc.org.uk)

I cannot currently trace Anne or Thomas

Property
There is an advert(North Wales Chronicle) for the sale of the property by John Jones in 1865,the year of his marriage.It is no longer separately identified after 1881 as per your subsuming theory.However the site is now occupied by an impressive new building and retains the original name.I have a photograph(of sorts) with the permission of the occupier and will send it if you are willing to supply an e-mail adress by PM.I don't believe it proper to publish it here for general viewing and it cannot be attached to a PM.
Perhaps I could help your cousin when the time comes as I'm obviously not too far away.
I have not included too many census refs but I have plenty if you don't!
Regards
Roger