William berners Lizzi berners (brewer) battersea

[avm228]

Not sure whether you already have the 1871 census?

1871 census: RG10/702/32/5

St John's Hill, Battersea

Lizzie BERNERS Wife Mar 23 Surrey Mortlake
William do Son 3 Surrey Battersea
Emily EARP Servant 17 City of London

[lindac26]

first time ive seen her on the 1871 census, name spelt wrong thats why couldn't find.  thanks.
still not sure if she ever married william, the 3 year old william in the 1871 record would be albert william.
Lizzie is always the head of the family, william never seems to be there?

[gailcb]

Hey Lin, forgot to say that Charlotte Anne Whiteside who married WT Berners in Dublin, went to India with him, but she died giving birth to the son.  So she died within a couple of years of marrying him.  She died in India.  So from that time on, WT was a single man/widower.

[lindac26]

ok so just need to see if william t was in the uk everytime she was pregnant.  i think the brewery in mortlake and what you were saying about one of the berners shipping the beer overseas might lead us to the right william.  Lizzie family where poor and stayed poor.  Someone was giving lizzie a lot of money, she lived in nice houses and had servants so maybe william hugh could not have afforded it.

[Mita10]

Doubt that William T Berners is your William - see below. 
Background - Arthur Berners (b1803, d1862) had one son, William Thomas Berners (b1837, d 1930).
William Thomas Berners went to Calcutta, India in about 1854 with his cousin, Henry.  He married Charlotte Anna Whiteside in Dublin in 1868, her father’s place of origin, although he met and probably courted her in Calcutta – her father was in the East India Company's army and she was born in Bengal, India.  Charlotte and William had a son, Charles Arthur Berners born in Calcutta in 1869 but Charlotte died in childbirth.  William did not remarry and I have no information on any liaison between him and other women subsequently – which is not to say that it didn’t happen, of course.
William and Charles returned to England about mid-year 1880.  William lived at Hanover Square, London while Charles went to boarding school.  It appears Charles returned overseas between 1886, after he completed his schooling, and 1907– he died at Queen Anne’s Mansions, St James’ Park, Westminster in that year.
It seems William Thomas Berners lived off his investments after his return to England.  William T remained at Queen Anne’s Mansions until his death.  In his will he mentions a long list of relatives and friends but not your relatives.   I would be very interested to know whether you are able to tie him in with your family.
William Hugh Berners (b1846 – no further details known) was the son of William Berners, the brother of Arthur Berners.  William Hugh was a cousin of William T.
There is a Berners family tree on the web - try Googling "Berners Rachel Jarrett" and click on the Berners link.

[gailcb]

Hi Mita10....and yes, we have all that information from delving through everything to do with WT Berners, but we have also found so many connections or maybe coincidences about where people were working and living that we keep finding ourselves back with him.  We have tried looking through all other William Berners details, but come up with nothing.  The fact that on some of the records show our William Berners as being a ship Broker, Merchant, gentleman, etc, and always working away from home are things that keep taking us back to him.  Also that Lizzies family were living in an area where some of the Berners were living in Surrey and also that her father was involved in the Brewery business, something else that the Berners family were involved in, and also that the brewery had the contracts to deliver beer to the east Indies.  We know that WT was involved in shipping as he was partner in the Ashburner & Co company shipping saltpetre to the East Indies.  As Lizzie is always down on the census as being head of the family, we are assuming that William, due to him not being anywhere else in the country, was always working  abroad. Lizzie did not have money of her own, but was always a'kept' woman and able to have servants, so her William must have had enough money for her to live in that fashion.  We know that only two of their children Francis Louis and Stuart Frederick lived to an age of getting married and having families.  Stuart Frederick being mine and Linda's Gt. grandfather..........was also someone who left his family but supported them, along with servants.  We understand from what older members of our family said, that the two brothers tried blackmailing the father for money....we can only presume because he was well off. And the only reason we can come up with is that they would use it against the father as he came from a well to do family who did not know of this 'kept' woman and children.   We have tried looking in other countries for the names, but come up with nothing..............so...any help from anyone, however small would be very much appreciated.

[Mita10]

Hi Gailcb.  You must know as much about WT as I do, or more, perhaps.  The family story about him was very limited - he was known as Uncle Tom Berners, he lived in Folkestone (which he didn't, unless he was in the habit of tripping down there periodically), he was wealthy, he owned a tea plantation (which turned out to be the Amgoorie Tea Estate which he inherited from Henry Berners) and his wife died in India in tragic circumstances immediately after giving birth.  Other than that the only info I have is available through the public records.  I don't have any info about him being a ship broker or a brewer but I know he was a partner in the trading agents Ashburner & Co in Calcutta, that he was involved in the amateur dramatic society there, and a contemporary said that WT retired from business in 1880, writing in 1907 "Berners, I believe, has been living the life of a retired gentleman.  I never heard that he renewed his connection with business affairs."  That is to say, he was resident in Calcutta over a period of time until 1880.  Certainly there are no family stories about him having another family at some stage (and I assume after 1880) but then the family wasn't likely to hear of that in any event.  He had the time and the money to have an alternate home, I should think, but it is, as you know, difficult to actually nail it down. He was about 43 when he returned to England.  I have to add I can't be certain when he went to India, he was certainly working in Calcutta in 1864, but my impression was that he didn't return until 1880 other than the trip to Dublin to marry Charlotte.
You will know that the Berners family seat was at Woolverstone Hall in Surrey, but WT's father was the third son of the third son of the lord of the manor, Charles Berners, and in those days the property of the family passed from father to eldest son. WT was rather distant from the main line and not automatically wealthy or necessarily welcomed into the Berners fold but he seems to have made himself a bit of money through his activities in India and through his inheritance from his cousin Henry.  Aside from that, what he did with himself between 1880 and 1930 is a bit of a mystery.
As it happens WT is a rather distant relative of mine through his mother.  He certainly didn't help latter day family researchers by having all his personal papers destroyed when he died....... 
Sorry I can't help you more.

[lindac26]

Hi Mita10, thanks for the info.  I am Gails sister.  Looking at the dates i don't think it can be william t if he didn't return to england until 1880 ish.  Lissies first child was born in 1869 and the last 1890.  I know william hugh had less money but he was around the same area.  On one of the census his trade is listed as a brewer.  Lizzies dad worked for the stag brewery in mortlake.  That is the only connection i can find. 

[gailcb]

Hi Mita10, yes Linda is right.....it sort of takes you away looking everywhere else when you come up against a wall like this...and for some reason there only every appears to be a connection with this family..........I think for a while we are going to have to have a look again at other william Berners from anywhere.  Is so strange that we just cannot match to any others, when the internet and all it's sites are available.  I think our family were being elusive for some reason....but what....we shall have to wait and see...........thanks for all your info.   I have loads and loads of info on WT Berners relating to other money making ventures he was involved in, so once we have sorted out our family, will spend a little time to sort them out and send you the links for them.  And if you do by any chance come across any other William Berners, we would appreciate any more info............thanks...Gail