(COMPLETED)Some Backround info on Charles Barker WHITE MESSENGER

[judb]

There is this death with perhaps her husband's name given instead of her father??      Do you have an age for Eliza at marriage?

1910 #11486
Eliza MESSENGER
Died Ballarat, Victoria
Age:   82 (b abt 1828)
Father's Name:   Messenger Chas
Mother's Name:   Unknown Ballt E

This Eliza seems to be in Ballarat in the 1903 and 1909 electoral rolls. 

1903 at Geelong Rd Ballarat East - no others of same surname at that address although there are others in Ballarat.
1909 at 131 Victoria St, Ballarat East, at the same address as
Charles MESSENGER, saw miller
Emma MESSENGER, hd

Judith

[~MERLIN~]

At Ballarat Cemetery & a child in the same grave:

MESSENGER ELIZA 82y 30/12/1910 - Widow

MESSENGER CHARLES EDWARD 4mths 14/02/1903 - Child

Child is the son of Charles MESSENGER & Emma SCHMIDT





   

[Neil Todd]

Thank you, Merlin, Judith and Leonie

Unfortunatly I dont have anything on Eliza Hall other than her name and that she was Born here.

I would like to discover more on her as she is obviously a part of my direct family tree.

Leonie, I attempted to look up that referance to Isaac Messenger 4/3/1872 and only came up with a mention of a Ladies commitee? Is it a direct mention of a "Brother"?

For some strange reason I cannot connect at the moment to BDM's NSW? Is this just me?

Neil

[c more]

Hi Neil
No the newspaper doesn't say his is the brother of Charles. It is about his 4 daughters being neglected.
The reason I say that he is possible brother to Charles ba 1832
John and Susannah MESSENGER have a son
Issac MESSENGER  bapt 6 May 1836 Coleshill, Warwickshire.

Burial for Issac MESSENGER
Boroondara Cemetery Kew Melbourne
Date  26-Nov-1890
Age  55
Grave Location  C/E B 0183
Section Name  Church of England

Buried same grave   
MESSENGER, ELIZABETH MAYHEW
Date  24-Dec-1869
Age  33
 
Only one other MESSENGER buried at Boroondara.
Name  MESSENGER, MARY 
Date  30-Jan-1883
Age  0
Grave Location  R/C B 0727
Section Name  Roman Catholic
Grave Type  PUBLIC
 She is Buried in a piblic grave with 7 other babies
 
Death
Mary MESSENGER
1883 Richmond Victoria
Father Chr, Mother Louia SOLOMON
Rego  2954


Leonie

[Neil Todd]

Hullo leonie, Gees this family is full of surprises and it sure looks like Issac (is that the spelling or Isaac) was the brother.

Maybe that is why i cannot find him. So Elizabeth mayhew was the one who died and the husband discovered her. Died from the effects of Drink.

There is some connection to one of the Messengers that lost heaps of Children, seems like they were not great parents, not anywhere near poor parents they were the worst type

There had to be some reason why Louisa Took off for Sydney with William masters. The loss of baby mary in 1883 may have been the straw.

I have two main lookups now. Finding Louisa's family roots and those of Eliza Hall.

There are several candidates for her on NSW BDM one looks promising Henry Hall and Eliza Richardson born 1831 ref #'s V183110845 1C/1831 & V1831471 15/1831  I dont know why there are two but they may be worth investigating, what do you think?

Neil

[judb]

There was an Isaac MESSENGER listed on FamilySearch with the same parents as Charles and baptised Coleshill.  I do not see him on the 1851 census and still have not found any of the family in 1841.

Here are the baptisms with parents John MESSENGER and Susannah
 JOHN MESSENGER, born 18 June 1821, baptism: 30 Aug 1822 Over Whitacre, Warwick, England (John snr was born in Over Whitacre)
Ann MESSENGER , baptism 15 JUN 1834 Coleshill, Warwick, England
Charles MESSENGER, baptism 21 SEP 1832 Coleshill, Warwick, England
Jane MESSENGER, baptised 17 JUL 1830 Coleshill, Warwick, England
Isaac MESSENGER, baptism 6 MAY 1836 Coleshill, Warwick, England (verified from image - father's occ miller)

There are others with parents John and Susan which I'm not sure about.  MESSENGER is a common surname in those parts 
However Thomas and Elizabeth are both living with father John in Coleshill in 1851

Thomas  MESSENGER, baptism 02 NOV 1822 Coleshill, Warwick, England
Susannah MESSENGER, baptism 11 MAR 1828 Coleshill, Warwick, England
Elizabeth MESSENGER, baptism 18 AUG 1825 Coleshill, Warwick, England
Sarah MESSENGER, baptism 08 APR 1824 Coleshill, Warwick, England 

Free BMD has this death, Sep qr, 1838
Susannah   MESSENGER, reg at Meriden, Vol 16 p241 (Meriden registration district includes Coleshill)

Aha - found some of them in 1841 living at Over Whitacre
Chas Messenger   8
Ann Messenger   7
Isaac Messenger 5
in same household:
Wm Boddington   55, butcher
Catharine Boddington   55
Mary Boddington   20
Wm Boddington   20 Wheelwright

And here's Isaac 1851
Back of 261 New John St West, Birmingham
William Ray   20, jeweller
Jane Ray   20 wife, b Coleshill
Hariot Ray   14 sister
Isaac Messenger 11 brother-in-law, errand boy, b Coleshill


 

[majm]

There are several candidates for her on NSW BDM one looks promising Henry Hall and Eliza Richardson born 1831 ref #'s V183110845 1C/1831 & V1831471 15/1831  I dont know why there are two but they may be worth investigating, what do you think?

There are two simply because ONE of these is a transmitted record to the NSW Chaplains...  The other one would be the originating parish where the ceremony was held.   So for example, the ceremony may have been conducted at St James C of E in Sydney, and the clergy there THEN transmitted quarterly returns to St Phillips C of E.   This dates back to one of the General Orders issued by Gov Macquarie in Sept 1810, whereby (without providing specific funding to the clergy), the clergy were required to forward to the NSW Chaplains (appointed and funded by Whitehall) information about the baptismal and burial ceremonies they conducted.  By 1825 this also included marriages.   It also included other denominations being required to transmit to the NSW Chaplains returns re their own BDM services. 

I think the Vol 15 entries could be St James and the Vol 1C entries could be St Phillips.   But in either case, the parish registers for those two volumes are most likely filmed, and the NSW SL may well have the films !   

Familysearch https://www.familysearch.org/  (Historic Records section, not as an unsubstantiated submitted entry) has Eliza's birth as 3 Oct 1831, and baptism at St James as 6 Oct 1831. 

Adding
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/628068 Sydney Gazette 15 Sept 1810 re General Orders...

Cheers,  JM

[majm]

1859 Melbourne Alphabetical Directory (Tanner)
Captain MESSENGER, officer’s quarters, Barracks, Spencer St
Charles MESSENGER, drayman, Cremorne street, Richmond

1868 and 1869 Sands Melbourne Dir’s
RICHMOND, Gwynne Street West Side
Charles MESSENGER.

1880 Sands Melbourne Dir
Charles MESSENGER, 176 Eastern Rd, Em. H  (not sure of the abbreviation, but it is for a suburb)
Francis MESSENGER, 76 Punt Rd, Wr. (Wr is abbreviation for a suburb)
Isaac MESSENGER, Stoke St, Gladstone Pl, Em H
Joseph MESSENGER, Centre Rd, Btn W (Btn W abbreviation for a suburb)

Cheers,  JM

[majm]

1870 Melbourne Sands Dir
Francis MESSENGER, builder, Punt Rd, Pra
Isaac MESSENGER, Burnley street, Rd (Rd as in a suburb, nor the abbreviation for a Road, eg Rd as RICHMOND)
Mrs MESSENGER, Gwynne Street Rd (Gwynne St mentioned in my previous post for Charles in 1868 and 1869!!) 


More from 1880 Sands Melbourne Dir, this time for EMERALD HILL
Gladstone Pl, S side (as in South Side of that street)
120 Robert WREN,
THEN  Stocke St
Matthew W Johnson
Robert Wharrie
Isaac Messenger
Thomas Renolds
Samuel Toysbin
Charles Johnson
Frederick Linquist
James Fiscal
THEN
118 (Gladestone Pl of course) Henry MOORE

Cheers,  JM