Author Topic: Where is Cragganfearne? Looking for info on the Laird - Fleming  (Read 16183 times)

Offline tickle

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Re: Where is Cragganfearne? Looking for info on the Laird - Fleming
« Reply #18 on: Wednesday 25 November 09 13:53 GMT (UK) »
Hi Suzie Q

As far as I know, no further correspondence or information has been revealed since this last in Nov 06. As far as I know none of my questions have been answered, and if they have, they haven't been shared. You may hear from the other correspondents in due course. Assuming that the questions haven't been answered with FACTS, then the state of play is the same as it was, and you will either have to do your own research along the suggested lines, or accept the FACTS that you have at your disposal.

Good luck!

Regards to all

Tickle
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Offline hermopar383

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Re: Where is Cragganfearne? Looking for info on the Laird - Fleming
« Reply #19 on: Tuesday 10 April 12 00:41 BST (UK) »
Boy did I wonder onto an old post.   ???

Hello all, 

I beleive I am related to James Robertson and Grizel Cameron married Nov 12, 1774. 
Their son James Robertson b Sep 1, 1780 in Tulliallam

Most of their descendants were born in Logierait and Little Dunkeld. 

Besides scotlandspeople, is there a list of death information or parish records for Tulliallam or Tulliemet (are these the same?)?   I am also looking for the same information from Logierait.

Thank you

Arleen

Offline bleckie

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Re: Where is Cragganfearne? Looking for info on the Laird - Fleming
« Reply #20 on: Tuesday 10 April 12 07:43 BST (UK) »
Hi Arleen

Try this link for Logierait

http://www.npfhg.org/LogieraitBurials.pdf

Yours Aye
BruceL

Offline thepipingpadre

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Re: Where is Cragganfearne? Looking for info on the Laird - Fleming
« Reply #21 on: Wednesday 29 July 15 22:22 BST (UK) »

Part 1 – see part 2 and part 3 posted following this post…

I found the name Laird Cragganfearne (with or without e) Fleming on an ancestory.ca family tree. I was lead there based on my own searches for family history (Agnew's of Dundalk, Grey County, Ontario, Canada).  He is shown as the father of a Joseph John Fleming born 1769 Dowally, Perthshire, Scotland and died at 65 in 1834 in Ballachraggan, Perthshire, Scotland. in 1841 he resideded in Perthshire, Scotland.  My original connection to the Fleming family was through James Agnew (born in April 28th 1824 in Ireland (county Antrim).  He married Jessie (Jessica) Janet Fleming (born in 1828 in Scotland).  They married and relocated to Canada, Derby, Grey County, Ontario, Canada).   James Agnew died March 14, 1905 in Owen Sound, Ontario Canada (Derby is near Owen Sound).  His wife Jessie (Jessica) Janet Fleming died in May 6th, 1918 in Owen Sound, Ontario Canada. 

After some research I have found the name Jessie and Janet used both in the Fleming and Agnew families various generations. It seems to be a popular set of names. However, after being lead to this particular name Laird Cragganfearne Fleming I am not sure they are actually part of my family history. However, after reading the various reports on Laird Cragganfearne Fleming I thought that I might suggest that you may wish to consider the following:

LAIRD is often used as a first or middle name and is likely derived from a Family Surname. So this may simply be the Christian or First name of this particular Fleming.  Also, it may be possible that a person may be given a name most likely a middle name based on a place their family resided.  For example I know someone with the middle name Atholl, which is the name he uses.  Cragganfearn or Cragganfearne may be their middle name and represents an area the family once lived.  Something to consider and if this is the case, the name LAIRD is simply a first name not a particular title given to a land owner in Scotland.

There is on the web a reference to Laird Cragganfearn Fleming as well.  It can be found at the following link: http://www.selectsurnames.com/fleming.html

It reads:

The Fleming surname has cropped up in various other places in Scotland.  There was the Laird Cragganfearn Fleming in Perthshire.  David Fleming was an 18th century Glasgow merchant whose descendants were graziers in Australia.

I also found this information on the web discussing Cragganfearn: 

http://www.scotlandsruralpast.org.uk/index.php?option=com_comprofiler&task=userProfile&user=423&Itemid=147

The following is towards the bottom of the page…..

The settlement of Cragganfearn comprises  buildings of varying ages - one steading is still in use. As well as farm buildings and houses, there are remains of a horsemill platform and a lime kiln built into a bank at a short distance from the main settlement.  There is evidence that the mill had been water powered at some time as there was a lade.  In 1985 walls stood higher than at the time of our survey with a complete gable end having since been demolished.
Cragganfearn was the birthplace and childhood home of the 19th century athlete, James Fleming.  He was born here in 1840 and reached his peak in the UK around 1870.  He then competed in the USA and Canada before emegrating to Australia

Cragganfern appears to be a settlement near Tulliemet or Tullymet in Perth, Kinross, and near the forks River Tay and River Tummel (closer to the Tummel River).   Some have mentioned Dunkeld, which is further South East, while Atholl (Blair) is further to the North West.

There is also another list of Flemings and other families showing that a Laird of Cragganfearn was born in 1930, but not much else about them.   It’s part of a time line, which can be found at the web link: http://members.shaw.ca/lyle.woods/genealogy/

I believe Lyle Woods is searching for family members though this area on the web.

As for myself, I am not sure that this particular FLEMING (be they a LAIRD or simply named LAIRD) is part of my family tree.   However, it was interesting to investigate this particular individual.


Offline thepipingpadre

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Re: Where is Cragganfearne? Looking for info on the Laird - Fleming
« Reply #22 on: Wednesday 29 July 15 22:22 BST (UK) »
Part 2

There are several Flemings with dates and names similar to Flemings in my family tree.  I am not sure what this compilation is focused on.  Not all the Flemings are listed that I have in my tree, nor is there any mention of Agnew’s which one of the Flemings married into. From my side of the Fleming family they resided in Derby, Grey County, Ontario, Canada and at least set of parents came to Ontario – Alexander “Alex” Fleming born 1799 and died 16 Feb 1869 and is buried in Greenwood Cemetery G-BLC-19 Grave 1. His wife was Janet Stewart (or I have seen him liked to a Janet Ross in some family trees).  Not sure when she was born or died.  However they had he following children: Jessie Janet Fleming, Born 1828 Scotland Died 1918 Ontario (my link to the Fleming family she married James Agnew). Also she had a brother Charles Fleming Born 1841 Died 1910 a sister Margaret Jane Fleming Born 1843 Died 1886 and another sister Jeannie Fleming born 1846 and died 1942.  The rest of my family are Agnew’s from Dundalk, Grey County, Ontario Canada with my Great Grandfather Herbert James Agnew born in 1867 in Romney, Derby, Grey County, Ontario Canada and his wife Nellie McGrath born in 1872 in the USA and died 18 May 1945 in Ontario Canada. They had children Jessie Louise Agnew born 1897 or 1898 Kent, Ontario Canada, Died 1982, James Roy Agnew born 1899 Kent, Ontario, Canada, Clarence Agnew born January 1911 in Ontario, Canada.

Also another son my Grandfather Hebert Milton Agnew born 1901 Debry, Grey County, Ontario Canada dies September 1978, Owen Sound.  His wife was Ruby Irene Hilts born July 1903 in Debry, Grey County, Ontario died.  They had 13 children Lois Isabel Agnew, Milton Douglas Agnew,  Audrey Jolene Agnew, Lola Doreen Agnew, Betty Joan Agnew, Hebert Ross Agnew, Islay Marie Agnew, Shirley Ann Agnew, Donald Keith Agnew, Wallace Murray Agnew, Doris Faye Agnew and Clayton Agnew not sure of his birth, but he is living today in Edmonton, Alberta,  Canada with his wife Florence and daughter Renee Agnew, who has a son Dime Agnew, also living in Alberta, Canada.

My story is a bit complicated, since I was born with the surname Agnew, in Markdale, Grey County, Ontario Canada in 1949.  My family resided on a farm in Dundalk, Grey County Dundalk,  Ontario Canada, on Herb and Ruby Agnew’s farm.  I was adopted by a family in Mimico (West End Toronto) Ontario Canada and I have the adoption order changing my last name from Agnew to my adopted family name.  I lost touch with my birth family as I was rasied by my adopted family from about 3 months old and they were my guardians. I do not know the name of my mother or my father.   I was told by my adopted mother when I discovered I was adopted that it was true.  I was also told by the source who told me I was adopted that I was related to the Agnew family of Dundalk and they asked me if I remembered going to the farm and playing with a young boy.  He apparently was my brother.  I will not relate his name here as he is still living and may or may not know the family history and that I am his brother.  I was told by my adoptive mother who my mother was, but not who may father was.  I was also told by a family friend of an aunts and uncles (they went to school with them in Dundalk) and it just happened that I found here through a fellow I went to school with, he is her son-in-law.  When he found out that I was an Agnew from Dundalk, his mother indicated who my mother was (not the same person as I was told by my adoptive mother).  She also indicated who may father was, who I will not name here as well as it has not been confirmed and since they did not marry my birth mother, it would be best to not disclose that families surname or his name at this time or possibly never disclose it, depending on the circumstances of their relationship and if his family knows the story or not.  I have been told that my mother is dead (the one that was told to me by my adoptive mother).  The other mother told to me by the family friend may still be living and married.  I was also told by the family friend that my father is now dead.  So, my search is to try to discover who my mother is and who my father is.  I at least have the opportunity to know my family roots so I do have a beginning point.  My next steps may be to contact my cousin in Edmonton and ask my uncle Clayton if he can confirm all of his brothers and sisters and to confirm the young fellow from that family I was told was my brother.   That young fellow is not listed as a child or my grandparents or any of their children from my searches various family trees.  My uncle may also know who my mother was (which of his sisters) and possibly even know the name of my father.  I think part of the problem why people may not want to discuss my father is I was told by the family friend that he was already married to someone other than my birth mother.  So I wish to respect the privacy of his family and living family members.  Should I discover that the person who I was told by the family friend was actually my father, I am not sure that I would try to make contact with those family members.

Offline thepipingpadre

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Re: Where is Cragganfearne? Looking for info on the Laird - Fleming
« Reply #23 on: Wednesday 29 July 15 22:23 BST (UK) »
Part 3

So, another step is to do the DNA test to see if there are any relatives out there which might lead to some information as to who my father may be.  This may also help lead me to who my mother is, since I have two names at this point.  However, it may not lead anywhere. So my best hope at this point is my uncle Clayton in Edmonton.  I was told his brother Donald Agnew still lives in Dundalk.  I was told one of his sisters lives in Dundalk as well and I do have her married name.  I was also told by a friend of mine that my brother now lives in Mount Forest, Ontario Canada.  This came about when my friend of mine was with me at a meeting and one of the people at the meeting indicate that we likely didn’t know where he came from.  He said he was from Markdale.  I said, I know Markdale, I was born there and my family was the Agnew’s from Dundalk.  My friend asked if I knew this particular fellow form the Agnew’s of Dundalk and I told him he was my brother but didn’t know it.  From what I had been told, my brother thought the my grandparents Herb and Ruby Agnew were his parents, so not to mention it to him unless he knows the story.   

So, mine is a bit of a mystery.  Fortunately I have documents showing my name at birth, location of birth and date of birth on an Adoption order to change my surname form Agnew to my current family name.

Anyway, I thought maybe this RootsChat.com might be a place to look for more information.  So, shortly I will start to search for more information about the Agnew’s and Fleming family on this site. 

Offline SAS1

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Re: Where is Cragganfearne? Looking for info on the Laird - Fleming
« Reply #24 on: Saturday 05 May 18 05:13 BST (UK) »
Stumbled onto this post when I searched for Craggenfearne as well. New to roots myself so not sure if any of the other people that posted will see this.
My lineage goes back to Christopher Alexander Fleeming / Fleming (spelling is mostly Fleming on line but copy of Family Bible is Fleeming). Apparently he was born in 1743, Athole, Perthshire, Scotland (family bible states Athole had to look up to see Perthshire, which fits with other family records info.) He was married to a Margret Forbes Fleeming in Blair Athole, Perth, Scotland on March 9, 1769.Their son - John Fleming born June 20, 1770 in Blair Athole, Perth - was said to be the son of Laird of Cragganfearn. This is were I find it confusing as wouldn't that be Christopher Alexander Fleeming, the man listed as his father? Anyway this son - John Fleming had 4 - possibly 5 children with a Janet Ross (married in 1790 in Mains of Kilmorich, Dowally, Perth) 2 sons and 2 - possibly 3 daughters. It was said that Janet Ross used to walk over the hills to see her mother but still trying to find info on her.) 1 of the daughters - Isobel (my lineage) was married to a James Douglass the Elder (April 23, 1826 Logierait, Perth). Now the title 'the Elder' usually meant an Elder of the Church, similar to a Deacon) but I cannot confirm that James was an Elder but that is how his name is in the family records. They lived in Blairgowrie and had 4 sons, 1 of which drowned in the river Tay and James the Elder died a few months after. The mother Isabella/ Isobell and sons immigrated to Canada where there was already family living that had immigrated earlier. Anyway in letters received from an Aunt either James Douglass the Elder or one of his sons was a tailor in Scotland.
In doing research I found that an Alternative name to Cragganfearne is: TULLYMET BURN Canmore ID 73765 County: PERTHSHIRE Parish: LOGIERAIT Council: PERTH AND KINROSS. I do not know if this is still the same piece of land in which was in question as before or not but it could possibly be a different area of land and therefore an smaller holding, not part of a large estate? Is Blair Athole, Perth anywhere near this Cragganfearn place? Is Tullymet Burn (which does not show up on google maps still in existance? I have my family tree on wikitree.com if anyone is interested.

Offline DonM

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Re: Where is Cragganfearne? Looking for info on the Laird - Fleming
« Reply #25 on: Saturday 05 May 18 09:19 BST (UK) »
Go here https://maps.nls.uk/view/74400314
Find Tulliemet
Zoom in, look under the "M"

Tulliemt Burn is still there.  Simply speaking a burn is nothing more than a ditch with water running through it and yes its on Google Maps.

Don

Offline DonM

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Re: Where is Cragganfearne? Looking for info on the Laird - Fleming
« Reply #26 on: Saturday 05 May 18 16:31 BST (UK) »
SAS1

Further to your post Blair Atholl is a parish in the county of Perth with the main town having the same name.  Alexander Fleming and Margaret Forbes were declared married 09 Mar 1769 he resided at the Mains (left bottom of town) she was from Arilkincall (just above the "A" in Blair Atholl town).  I don't see the birth of an Alexander having a father Christopher anywhere in Scotland https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk nor a marriage of a Christopher so perhaps he went by Alexander.

Son John was born 20 JUN 1770 at Arilkincall baptised on the 24th, so they were still in Atholl at that time.  Dowally is below Tulleymet; Kilmorrich is just above the map fold. I neglected to explain that the term "Haugh of" means level ground not a farm/dwelling name.  Which is likely the confusion in your post.  Many of these named arears consisted of common ground for grazing during this era.

That being said their children (Alexander, John, Isabel, Janet, Catherine) may have been born at the Mains (at least Janet was).

I see James Douglas (he was a mason)/Fleming were married in Ballacraggan which is under the Ph of Logierait no children registered so either they were not members of the Church of Scotland or the records were lost.  There are only a few Ross families in this area so I wonder if tale of Janet running over the hills to visit mom might be a stretch.

To find out if your kin were Elders in the church you would need to go through the Kirk Session Minutes for each Parish they lived and you can not do that economically from across the pond without hiring a researcher.  That being said, the NRS is planning to make these available beginning in 2018 but I am unsure if that includes internet access along the same lines as Scotland's People.

However, you should consult the OPR Records at Scotlands People where you can access the original documents to determine exactly where they were and in some cases what they did.  Family Bibles are not necessarily accurate.  Laird of Cragganfearn - the "Laird" of everyplace you mentioned except Ballacraggan was the Duke of Atholl. Ballacraggan was held by the Earl of Breadalbane.  Very few places in this part of Perth were held (owned) by others it was very much a feudal society.   

Don