Toronto streets, about 1840

[cosmac]

I do read the posts and don't dispute that George Clezie and Jane Lockie had a number of children between the years of 1816 and 1829!

How does this specifically relate to James Clezie who married Ellen Lockhart.  There is so much speculation on this  thread that I'm trying to pinpoint a few definites.  Is there any documented evidence of James as the son of George Clezie and Jane Lockie or just a really good guess  or simply the only recorded marriage that shows up on Family Search. 

Nothing wrong with really good guesses but facts are even better!

These comments are not meant to be "snarky".  Hard to ask questions without someone taking offense - print doesn't convey tone and people are quick to assume the worst.  Genealogy is all about questions.

Heiserca - I asked previously if you had contacted the cemetery to see if they had more information than what was on the online index.  It might be worth trying as different people might have given information to the cemetery and for the death registration.  Perhaps you'll find it's been a waste of time but a stamp and a letter is worth it in my opinion.  I've written many cemeteries and the results have varied but I've never regretted making the effort.

Have you tried tracing the siblings of James you believe emigrated with him.  I started looking at possibles with marriages to Matheson and Lovell but don't feel like looking for things you might already have.  Siblings of James might lead to a clue about Ellen's familiy but only if you find someone who kept a good family diary or bible as they probably concentrated on the Clezie side.

In my opinion the pertinent records you have for Ellen didn't give you the information you need to trace her lineage.  Her marriage took place in Troy.  That county has a good website with a list of the various resources which might be useful.   

I know you are excited about potential leads but it seems that you are trying to weave each possibility into fact and connecting families distant to each other in geography.  Lockhart isn't an unusual surname and not every Lockhart is going to hold a clue to your Ellen.

Debbie

[JaneyCanuck]

Speaking strictly for myself, I am following the "ruling-out" approach that I have found to be an excellent approach when one is stuck. Call this "speculation" if you like. Speculation followed by investigation is how we commonly discover things.

I have just spent a very long time investigating those Lockharts in Lanark County, not to "prove" they are the right Lockharts, but to see whether some way could be found of ruling them out as the right Lockharts -- either by definitely accounting for the daughters who immigrated to Canada, or by finding a person in the present day who would have information about them.

I've succeeded in identifying the marriage and quite a few descendants of one of the daughters of the John Lockhart who immigrated to Ramsay Township, Lanark County, Ontario, in 1821. I haven't been able to sort out whether she is a Margaret born in Scotland or a Margaret born in Ontario -- there seems to be conflicting opinion on that and I haven't identified any records that constitute "proof" either way.

However, I have identified three ways of contacting people who might have info:
- a message on line from a descendant of Thomas Cavers, who would be either the husband or the son of Margaret Lockhart
- a family tree on line showing the Cavers family into which Margaret Lockhart married (I assume there's contact info there, forgot to check)
- my personal acquaintance with an individual who is descended from the brother of Margaret Lockhart's husband (I think I'm remembering that correctly), if all else failed

Since the info about John Lockhart who immigrated to Ontario 1821 with three daughters is consistent with the info about Ellen Lockhart who married James Crezie, and there is nothing actually known about that Ellen Lockhart, it seems reasonable to me to consider that family in the absence of any other candidate.

I am certainly not saying "this is your Ellen Lockhart and family". I think that's clear. I'm saying "here is information about that family and here are some ways of getting more information about them", and here are facts that are both consistent with and inconsistent with the hypothesis that this is your Ellen Lockhart's family.

Yes, I think heiserca was a little rash with those first Scottish baptisms and the ruling out process there -- it turned out that the fourth candidate was indeed ruled out, after first being settled on a little hastily. I did enquire about how that choice was made.

I'm sure any suggestions are going to be gratefully received. Tracing descendants of James Crezie's siblings is absolutely one of the best ways to go about looking for information, I agree. (My experience with that in my own tree, tracing descendants of my great-grandfather's siblings, proved hopeless, since those I found, although they had all sorts of strange and wonderful genealogical tales, had never even heard of their ancestors who were sisters of my great-grandfather, and we're talking the generation born 1845-1855 here ...)

And it may be that, in the end, there will be no answers.

[JaneyCanuck]

deleted - did it again; quoted my post instead of modifying it.

(Gosh, maybe I really am a newbie and not otherwise as suggested elsewhere ...)

[heiserca]

Whoa!  Someone stirred up a hornet’s nest!  Questions flying in all directions...

The family story, summarized:

George Clezie (b. 1787) and wife Jean or Jane Lockie (b. 1790) were  married at Hutton, Berwickshire, Scotland, 20 June 1813.  (I was there last summer, also at the National Archives in Edinburgh, got family records both places.)  The 2nd child of George & Jean/Jane - their 1st son - was James Kerr Clezie, baptized 4 Feb 1816 at Hutton.  Middle name, Kerr, came from his paternal grandmother, Helen Kerr. 

George, Jean & family moved to Edinburgh between 1817-20; more children born there: Jean (1820), Jane (1823), twins George & Janet (1825), Isabella (1828).  The father, George, was listed in Edinburgh directories 1823-32, sometimes as a cabinetmaker, sometimes a “broker”.

The twins, George & Janet, b. 1825, both died from measles, late 1831.  Their tragic deaths precipitated the family to flee Scotland.  Last Edinburgh directory listing was 1832... followed promptly by “Mrs. Clazie and 3 children above 12 years” chugging up the St. Lawrence River from Quebec to Montreal aboard the “John Molson”, in July 1832.  George and the younger children were on another boat.  Jean or Jane was already pregnant: another Janet, was born 13 Dec 1832 at Montreal. 

A 3-year gap... then George, the father, and James, the son, both were listed in Toronto directories, starting 1836, initially at the same address. 

James struck off on his own for a while, went to central New York state.  He married Ellen Lockhart at Troy, in June 1840, stayed long enough to be listed in the 1840 city directory, in nearby Albany, at 31 Liberty Street.  Symbolic address!  Free of parents at last. 

James brought his bride Ellen back to Toronto, was listed in directories starting 1844.  Their child Eleanor (also called Helen Orr) was born July 1849, died May 1852.  Immediately after her death, James & Ellen left Toronto, moved to Cleveland, found in the 1853 directory.

The older generation, George & wife Jean or Jane, stayed in Toronto, now in their 70s.  George died 21 Jan 1863, buried at Necropolis cemetery.  His widow moved to Cleveland, lived with son James until her death in 1865. James died in 1880, aged just 64, and was laid beside his mother at Woodland cemetery.

Two daughters of George & wife stayed in Toronto:

- Isabella (b. 1828 at Edinburgh) married George French, moved to Brantford, had children, then joined the rest of the family at Cleveland in 1867, Confederation year.

- Janet (b. 1832 at Montreal) married Hugh Matheson, a merchant tailor, and had children.  Hugh d. 1885, Janet lived until 1911; both died in Toronto.  The Matheson monument at Necropolis has their names inscribed, along with some of their children.  George Clezie, father of the family, rests alone in an adjoining plot, an unmarked grave.

What have I missed?  No doubt someone will trip me up.  Many, many thanks to all RootsChatters who helped fill in the missing parts of the story!

[polarbear]

Wow, my head has certainly been spinning!

Heiserca, wrt to the marriage of James and Ellen ....

I was wondering if you had seen the actual record? It does seem like you did since you mentioned the signature of the minister? Were there any witnesses?

If you haven't seen the actual record, my suggestion would be to order in the film to your local Family History Center (familysearch folk) to see what other info the record might hold.

Also, in the same batch there is a marriage record for a Margaret Lockart at the same church in 1852 (if I remember correctly) whose record may also provide a clue if she happens to be related. Looking at this record might also be worthwhile?

PB

[JaneyCanuck]

Oh good heavens, yes! Another Loc*rt in the same marriage batch in the same place one year earlier?! That calls for a look. FS has it as Lockhart, btw. Married Samuel Thompson.

(edit - oops - I was thinking one year earlier than the Jane Lockhart who married there - obviously 12 years later than Ellen!)


heiserca, no thoughts at all on all the Lockhart-Cavers research??

[heiserca]

My head too is woozy from all the new information elicited here!  Quite remarkable.  Give me a moment to digest it all... Not sure that I grasped the Cavers connection; have to reread that more slowly.

Re the James & Ellen marriage at Troy, polarbear - I saw the extract from the church record years ago, now can't find it.  My recollection is just a single line: date, names of parties, signature of minister.  As I can't find it now, shall certainly order the film and make another copy.  Thank you for the suggestion.

The mention of another Lockhart marriage, same place, 12 years later, is definite news to me!  Must have a look at that.  Polarbear, can you please clarify "in the same batch" means on the same film?  Thank you.

[JaneyCanuck]

at FS, if you click on the record for Margaret Lockhart (film 533483)
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/F64R-FX6
then you click on the batch
https://familysearch.org/search/records/index#count=20&query=+batch_number:M51096-1
and search within the batch -- I would make it loc*rt in all searches -- and Ellen is there, yes, same film number.


The Lockhart-Cavers thing in a nutshell:

John Lockhart + wife + three daughters immigrated to Ramsay Township, Lanark County, Ontario, in 1821.

His daughter Margaret (whether born in Scotland or a little later in Canada is an open question) married Thomas Cavers in Lanark County.

You can find on line
- a message from a descendant of Thomas Cavers (either Margaret's husband or her son) with an email address
- a family tree with these Cavers in it showing also the descendants of a brother of Thomas Cavers

I am personally aquainted with a descendant of a brother of Margaret Lockhart's husband Thomas Cavers and there is also a telephone listing available for another descendant, an uncle of the person I am acquainted with.

One of these people might have other information about this Lockhart family in Lanark County or know of other sources who might be related or have info.

This is all for the purpose of determining whether John Lockhart who immigrated in 1821 had a daughter who could be your Ellen or (more probably?) did not have a daughter who could be your Ellen. It seems that this John Lockhart may have had a daughter named Elexis, born in 1816, who seems to be about the only candidate in that family.

[heiserca]

Thank you, Janey.  That’s remarkable... Elexis, b. 1816; Ellen b. 1816... maybe?  Will certainly try to figure that out.   

Troy, Albany & Schenechtedy are tri-cities in New York, at a strategic spot:  where the Hudson River meets the Erie Canal.  From New York City, take a barge north, up the Hudson River, turn west onto the Erie Canal, follow it all the way to Lake Ontario.  Before railways, that was the most direct route from the east coast to the Great Lakes, Toronto, Cleveland, Chicago, the whole interior of the continent.  That’s why Troy figures so prominently in 19th century records.