John Downey born 1811? Dublin

[princesscowie1]

Was Jacob Marks at Wagga Wagga a relative of Joseph Marks ( born England 1843) the de facto of Mary Downey/Stark? .And on the marriage cert it clearly shows Ludwig Stark. On his death cert 1917 (85years old) it says Ludwig Stark place of birth Germanyabout 63years in Aust in NSW so b1832, married to Mary at 36years old.  On his death cert it shows his de facto Eliza Buttimer as spouse (obviously not married as he was still married to Mary, doesn't show his children to Mary i.e. Lewis and William only the 6 children that he had with Eliza. He must have split with Eliza as he died at McGees Hotel St Marys. On the dc it shows inquest dispensed with - A. Judges Coroner 3/5/1917. So would the Stack name be wrong?  Also with the death of Mary (mother) I have toyed with the idea that the stillborn and Mary (mother) are buried together but the death cert shows Edith Marks 5 years old. and died with diptheria in P.A. Hospital, Camperdown so I cant imagine the details being incorrect.Edith died 21/4/1892 then stillborn Mary (baby or Mary - mother- buried 23/4/1892. Cemetery records show Mary Edith Marks and stillborn Mary buried together. But if Mary - mother died when stillborn Mary was born where is death cert for Mary - Mother?  Gail

[princesscowie1]

Hi,

This might be the probate of John Downey who you thought might have died after 1874 as he disappears off the Electoral Roll
http://investigator.records.nsw.gov.au/Entity.aspx?Path=\Item\301089


These records are at NSW Archives Kingswood Sydney. A search through Archive Investigator shows quite a few "Downey" records that may provide more info for you.

Cheers
cupoflife

None of these are my John Downey.(dad) The Closer Settlement Files are for his son John W Downey who lived at Young. Thanks for the help! Gail

[majm]

Hi there,

Re the 1917 dc for a Ludwig STARK.

I am not sure how you have determined that dc would be for your Mary Downey’s first husband, when it makes no mention of the 1868 marriage.    Was Eliza described as that chap’s de facto on that dc?  

I can see several births registered in the Penrith District in the 1880s that MAY (and may not) be children of a Ludwig and Eliza STARK.  I think St Marys would be within the NSW BDM district of Penrith in the 1880s and even post WWI.   Perhaps if you were to obtain the 1887 bc (transcript copy would be adequate) for a birth for a lass to Ludwig and Elizabeth, registered Penrith, (#29743) it would note when and where that Ludwig married.    If so, then you would have a clue to follow up to confirm or eliminate if that chap who died at St Marys 1917 was previously married to your elusive Mary.   Afterall, divorce laws were introduced to NSW in 1873, however, just because a marriage occurred in NSW, does not mean that any divorce matters needed to be heard in NSW, it depended on where the parties were then residing ….   http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexes/searchform.aspx?id=16&new=1

However, these are not addressing your opening post and your questions about John DOWNEY.  So may I suggest that you follow up on Cupoflife’s post (#17) re the NSW SRO’s deceased estate files?  There’s a file there for a John DOWNEY, 20 April 1882 as DD, and probate granted 21 Feb 1883.  These files quite often contain BDM records, witness statements from family members, establishing their identification to make a claim.....   Ohhhhhhhhh, you have already eliminated that file. 

I am still concerned as to how you have established that John DOWNEY and Bridget REYNOLDS were your great great grandparents when there is blanks on the mc for 1868 for Mary Downey and Ludwig Stark and most likely there are similar blanks on the mcs for Mary's siblings (of course, I am presuming these siblings married in NSW)  

Cheers,  JM

[princesscowie1]

I have mc for John Downey/Bridget Reynolds, then have bc(church records) for early children then bc for later ones incl my grgrandfather. I have mc for my grgrandfather, death c, and I and another relation of Mary Downey/Stark/Marks son Joseph Marks b 1878 have been doing indepth research.  I also have been to Kingswood and accessed Bridget(Maude) Downey/Horton's will packet which confirmed bequeaths to family and also Lewis Marks probate packet which confirmed the link. Also my rellie has accessed Bridget Reynolds/Downey's probate packet confirming relationship./ I also have a living Aunty(my father's sister) descended from the Downey/Downie's who has confirmed a lot of the information.  So all of the research has been traced through expensive bc,mc &dc's I also have certs mc's, newspapers notices and cemetery records for all of the children which only have spelling mistakes e.g. Bridget Randles instead of Reynolds. But it all checks out. They were a poor Irish hardworking country orientated family who worked on many properties around the Murrumbidgee area John being noted as labourer, shepherd on certs. Gail

[majm]

...  a farmer and Mary was a spinster and a "Lady" both living on the same property and  ...

I am confused by the contrast between "poor Irish hardworking country orientated family" and Mary's occupation as a Lady on that 1868 mc, and of course there was the apparent lack of Lewis STARK 1871 bc easily spotted online.   

The probate packets at NSW SRO are one of the valuable resources for family history buffs, and it is good to know that you have gone through these, and have eliminated the John Downey one for 1882.


Cheers,  JM   

[majm]

Some thoughts

  Who was the John DOWNEY, residence, R C Orphan School on the 1878 NSW ER for Parramatta? 

  Who was the John DOWNEY, death registered 1882 at Liverpool, no parents given names on the online index, but he died at Liverpool, and the informant knew he as being 64 years of age .....  #7764.

Cheers,  JM

[princesscowie1]

...  a farmer and Mary was a spinster and a "Lady" both living on the same property and  ...

I am confused by the contrast between "poor Irish hardworking country orientated family" and Mary's occupation as a Lady on that 1868 mc, and of course there was the apparent lack of Lewis STARK 1871 bc easily spotted online.   

The probate packets at NSW SRO are one of the valuable resources for family history buffs, and it is good to know that you have gone through these, and have eliminated the John Downey one for 1882.


Cheers,  JM   

Trust me these are my direct line. The Downeys were farm workers and from Ireland, Mary could not sign her name and often due to her accent? spelling mistakes occurred.  It has been confirmed that Ludwig Stark married Mary Downey 1868 at Foxborough Hall with her dad John and brother Frederick (his x mark) as witnesses. Mary would have been under 16. Not sure about consent rules then? When her mum Bridget Reynolds came to Aust. on the "Thomas Aburnot" in 1850 it was listed that she could not read or write and she was 16 and then she married John Downey Nov 1850 On William Stark's birth cert it shows Ludwig Stark(31) from Germany, farmer(possibly share farmer)Mary Ann Downey mother 22 born "Kimo" near Gundagai Witness at birth Mrs Downey Wagga Wagga.Informant Ludwig(father).Previous issue 1 male living (Lewis b 1871) Now his age and her age differ she was 20 he was 40e living. That was my mistake about the bc for Lewis Stark as my rellie has given me lots of her research but not that bc Gail .

[majm]

Re Eliza STARK  (Rooty Hill is near to St Marys and both would have been considered country in that era)

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13818250   21 March 1891 SMH

" BUTTIMER,  February 23, 1891, at her country residence, with her daughter at Rooty Hill, Mrs Catherine BUTTIMER, suddenly of chronic nerbritious, after 4 days’ illness, aged 67 years.  Late of 82 Mill Street, Pyrmont.   My dear mother walked in perfect health, and bade us all good night and in the morning, when I woke, I found my dear mother could not speak.  Inserted by her loving daughter and grandchildren.  Eliza Stark.  "

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/17173684 3 May 1935 SMH

SPARK  "The relatives and Friends of the late Mrs Eliza Buttimer SPARK are invited to attend her Funeral ……..  "

NSW BDM online index  Eliza B STARK, dau of Robert and Catherine, death registered in 1935 Balmain South #8534 …  The dc would give information about her marriage to Ludwig STARK, when/where etc and of course information on dcs is only as reliable as the informant’s own knowledge, but perhaps it will have info about when Ludwig married Eliza, and thus help you to then sort out when the marriage to Mary Downey was formally ended.

Cheers,  JM

[majm]

NSW 1870 ER WEST SYDNEY
Robert BUTTIMER, household, Mill St

NSW 1878 ER WEST SYDNEY
Robert BUTTIMER, freehold, Off Mill St

Sands 1890 Sydney Alpha Directory
Robert BUTTIMER, 82 Mill St

NSW ER 1913 DARLING HARBOUR, polling at Point St 
Eliza STARK, 160 Pyrmont St, domestic duties

Cheers,  JM