Joseph Dyson Lister the Independent Zionist, census lookup

[Valda]

21 September 05

Apparently we are not allowed to post photos onto the look-up board so I wasted a lot of time for nothing. Dave
I am really sorry about that, I did not know - all the more reason to put it on the general  board, forgive me
               


21 September 05

Louise, I was kicking myself for time wasting, as I get older I seem to have less and less to spare. I notice now there is a part of this site somewhere for listing interests. Middle names - My ancestors were called Greenwood Bland - someone forgot to get married back in Haworth early 1800's, anyway on many of the census returns the family is listed as Greenwood and not as Bland, could the same be true for Wilson? just a thought Valda, America via Canada?

Best regards
Dave
         


21 September 05

I have had a look on FreeBMD for the birth of a John Wilson (any or no middle initial) in Bradford from March quarter 1880 to Dec quarter 1881, hoping to identify anyone who could be John W Wilson aged 10 on the census in Manningham with Nellie. There are only two - because 1881 has not been entered onto FreeBMD yet. Sept Quarter 1880 Bradford 9b 82John William Wilson Dec Quarter 1880 Bradford 9b 166John Francis W Wilson I think the first one is probably the son of Nellie, although I don’t much want to spend £7.50 proving it. So, I don’t think he is my John. Perhaps I need to find a John Wilson in 1891 with no middle initial? I made a note on the train to reply concerning how I knew that Eliza's witnesses were women. I thought about it and concluded that I don't know, for some reason I just assumed, which is not good enough, especially as generally witnesses are one of each!

Best wishes
Louise
         


22 September 05

Hi Louise, But Nellie remains in contention as a possibility for the adoptive mother of your John. Whether or not John William WILSON b Sep qtr 1880 in Bradford is a son of Robert and Nellie WILSON we can't even begin to guess. But, if he were, one would surely expect him to be with them in the 1881 census - and he is NOT. Also note that a John William WILSON died Mar qtr 1881 aged 0 in Bradford. The important thing is that there is no baby John with Robert and Nellie WILSON in the 1881 census (3/4 Apr), but there is a 10yo John W WILSON with the widowed Nellie in 1891 (5/6 Apr). Yes, it's entirely possible (perhaps very likely) that 10yo John in the 1891 census isa biological son of Nellie's with age a bit out (to explain why he doesn't appear in 1881) - but there's also a possibility that he is adopted and is your John. Just a reminder 1881, 105 Church St, Manningham, York WILSON Robt. R WILSON, Head, 38, b Idle, Sewing Machine Repairer Do Nelly, Wife, 38, b Kirkheaton, Silk Weaver Do Tiras (sic), Son, 15, b Bradford, employed by father Do Jane, Mother, 65, b Idle (and occupation listed as 'Nothing'!) 1888 - a Robert Rawnsley WILSON, 45, d Jun qtr in Bradford (possibly/probably Nellie's husband )1891, 105 Church St, Manningham WILSON Nellie, Head, Widow, 48, b Kirkheaton, Silk Weaver Do Jno Wm, Son, 10, b Bradford and a boarder, Nellie SENTONE, unmarried, 20, b Lincolnshire, a Silk weaver I don't think we've found Nellie WILSON in 1901 yet? Valda, would you be able to find her? It would be good to have that information (especially if, say, she'd moved to Scarborough!). JAPPS Louise, I think you were going to get a birth cert for one of the younger children listed with 'Benjamin' BENN and Elizabeth in 1871 to check out the forename of the father (i.e. was 'Benjamin' really Benjamin or was he Samuel).

[Valda]

22 September 05

I'd looked at Nellie briefly and was going to come back to her when I had more time. I'd try to see whether either going back or forward I could connect her in anyway. Naturally if you go back she does the usual thing and presents herself as born somewhere completely different. In 1871 Lincoln's Arms 52 North Wing? Bradford Yorkshire Robert R Wilson 29 Idle, Yorkshire, Head Beerseller and lamplighter Ellen Wilson 29 Yeadon, Yorkshire, Wife The interesting thing about the 1871 census is no son as in the 1881 census. I'd first thought their son's name must be Siras but it is actually Tiras. WILSON, Tiras 1888 June Marriages Bradford Walker, Cora 1888 June Marriages Bradford or BENTHAM, Maud Marian 1888 June Marriages Bradford On FreeBMD these are the only Tiras events for Bradford - all Wilsons Wilson, Tiras 1857 June Deaths Bradford WILSON, Tiras 1888 June Marriages Bradford Wilson, Tiras 1891 September Births Bradford You would think finding Tiras, as a Wilson or anything else would be a piece of cake on the 1891 or 1901 censuses but it isn't. He could of course just been missed off the 1871 census - I can't find a Tiras on that either. His age could be wrong on the 1881 census (its actually given as 13 not 15) but can't be out to far as he is down as employed by father. No problem finding Robert on the 1861 census in Wapping Road Bradford - wirer, with widowed mother Jane (maybe husband was Tiras?) and sister Harriet. Can't of course find Ellen/Nelly/Nellie or even Helen born Kirkheaton/Yeadon or somewhere else because I can't find a marriage for her, so I don't know who she is. It also makes finding her on the 1901 census, presuming she hasn't remarried or died as Nelly/Nellie/Ellen etc more tricky. However I can't see her under any surname variation and that's where I stopped previously. However I've made a new stab at Tiras and found him and wife Cora on the 1920 and 1930 censuses for Connecticut U.S. with an emigration date of circa 1890/1, with son Fred R. born England not quite sure of age. I also found what looks to be them on the 1900 census, son Frederick aged 11. Which deadends Tiras for Scarborough and opens up the possibility (I can't find any emigration records for the family) that he took Nellie and John with him to America. On the plus side Tiras remains a possibility as an adopted child.

Regards
Valda


22 September 05
 
As soon as I'd shut down the machine I thought I'm just rushing this I haven't closed the circle tightenly enough to make that last statement and I haven't checked through what I'm rushing. The obvious thing was to check for Jane Wilson on the 1871 census to see whether she had any grandchildren staying with her and she does, not unsurprisingly transcribed as Siras but Tiras on the actual page itself. Jane is also with her husband Joseph, so I checked back to the 1861 census and though she is head of house it clearly says married. - so another rush. Next time I'll wait to reply when I've really got the time to do this properly.

Regards
Valda

[Valda]

22 September 05

A few changes and updates in blue Good morning ladies JAP, thanks for sweeping the cobwebs out of my head. I knew there was something about John W Wilson that I had to get my head round in terms of time scales but I failed I am afraid. As you point out, if JWW was Nellie's own son then he only had about a day to be born in (assuming he wasn't in actual fact "9 and nearly 10, so you might as well put 10 down").Unfortunately 1881 birth registrations do not appear on FreeBMD yet so I cannot look to see if there are any other possibilities. So, if only because JWW was not on the 1881 census but was on the 1891 census, he is a good bet. Also I note the Wilsons lived in Manningham which is where John Wilson Benn told his children he came from. Perhaps I will have to wait until FreeBMD have caught up before I can satisfy myself (and you) that there are no other contenders for JWW.I do want to order certificates for Samuel/Benjamin's younger children to see who their father is named as. I have had a look on FreeBMD for registration references for Ellen in particular, who was born circa 1872 and have found only one - Bradford Sept 1872 9b 142.Then I had a look for her marriage certificate reference - she married Thomas Henry Wood. If you remember Valda found the married couple on the 1901 census and Elizabeth Benn widow living with them. I have only found one reference for that marriage which is March 1894 9b 124.Would you be able to check these on your own source to see if there are any other possibilities for these events before I send off for them? Thanks very much Valda (your post just came in while I was composing this) - good work with Tiras. I note on Google that Tiras was the son of Japheth and the grandson of Noah. I accept that all my family were compulsive liars about where they were born but Kirkheaton really is nowhere near Yeadon, by any stretch of the imagination. I also wonder about someone who sold beer and lit lamps becoming a sewing machine repairer ten years later. This made me wonder if they were the same couple. However, on reflection, I shouldn't think there were many Robert R Wilsons with a wife called Ellen/Nellie of the same age in Bradford. I shouldn't think there were many Robert R Wilsons full stop. It is an unusual combination of initials. Let's hope you are never able to find records showing Nellie and JWW going to America to join Tiras, that would rather mess up this great progress! I have just been on familysearch.org and had a look for Tiras Wilson entries. Baby Tiras junior was baptised in July 1891 in Manningham, Bradford, the son of Tiras and Cora, so they did not emigrate until after the census, so we ought to be able to find them really, perhaps Cora would be easier to find than her mistranscribable husband - unless they just came back to England for the christening, or would that be too far to come? Fred Rawnsley Wilson was baptised in Manningham on 28th April 1889 according to the same source What I really need, and am still hoping for, is an address in Bradford, or Scarborough, from where John Wilson enlisted/attested. I will ask for the printing of the records I found by the staff at Kew later and then comb through those. You might be interested to learn that John Wilson/Benn had a glowing report on all the paperwork I saw and in case it matters later, he gave his trade as "turner". I also noticed on Google this week that he is now showing up in a list of Singapore Jurors from 1916 where he was smelter. This was during the period when he was in the Singapore Engineers Volunteer Regiment and when my Great Uncle Jim (whose name was actually Frederick James was born.)

Regards and best wishes
Louise


22 September 05

An extremely helpful woman in the Register Office in Bradford has just confirmed, unequivocally, that John W Benn's middle name, as registered, was William. John William Benn, definitely. So it looks as though one of the family myths - that Wilson was not his actual name but an adopted one - is true Other information that might prove important - Lotts Yard was off St Thomas Street, Scarborough, near the Theatre Royal. Lotts Yard is not there now, I have seen old maps and been to the place where it was, it is now a carpark round the back of a supermarket. It would have been very tiny, probably not more than two rooms, maybe only one, in a very narrow and dark passage is my guess. I have tried to find it using the free 1901 census offer from "ancestors" but that only lets me search by individuals. I then had a look for the property on the pay to view search on the official national archives website (the search before you pay) but it kept saying my search was taking too long. I searched for Lotts Yard, St Thomas Street, Scarborough and various versions thereof to no avail.

Louise

[Valda]

22 September 05

Ah Louise, The story gets more and more convoluted ) And why, I ask myself, didn't Eliza name her baby Samuel BENN (or similar) to give a clearer pointer to us as to who was the father!!I did look earlier today on FreeBMD for possible entries for the younger children of 'Benjamin'/Samuel BENN (the possible 'deserter'). There were some possible entries around the right time in Bradford including a Joshua of the right date - but who knows given that BENN is not an uncommon name and that they went for the same forenames ...Nellie WILSON of Manningham really does appeal to me - but (to mix metaphors) perhaps she's just some sort of red herring out there in the ether trying to latch on to any possible descendants and thus spooking anybody who is looking for someone of her name oDAll
The best,

JAP


22 September 05

I'd already looked for Cora on the 1891 census. When you see someone marrying either a Cora or a Maud on FreeBMD you obviously have your fingers crossed for Cora. There are only 4 Cora Wilsons in the whole of the country on the 1891 census, so as a name not quite as rare as Tiras but getting on for it. There is a Nellie Wilson in Scarborough on the 1901 census in some sort of home - not quite sure what it actually is, at 38 Ramshill RoadRG13 4532 folio 78Nellie Wilson 56 Manchester, Higher Broughton Visitor Scarborough Yorkshire She is the only Nellie Wilson of about the right age in Yorkshire. I can't find another Nellie born Higher Broughton on the 1891 census. It could be an error on the 1901 census but it is rather a distinct error and her age is off by a couple of years, but she probably wasn't giving the information. Still Manchester in Lancashire is getting even further away. Now I know I ought to remember which regiment John Wilson attested for but I can't - was it the 11th Hussars? - because there is a John Wilson on the 1901 census RG13 794 folio 121 at The Barracks Canterbury Kent John Wilson 21 St Johns Scarboro, Yorkshire Single Private He looks the best bet from potential candidates born circa 1881 Yorkshire. The 1891 census says there are a few John Wilsons born circa 1881 (but all a couple of years either side - however the army was always a bit vague when it came to getting men's ages right and their places of birth and someone attesting in Scarborough is probably near enough for them). On the 1901 census there is also a John Benn born Bradford of the right age, a boarder in Wray (actually 'Wray with Bottom' - great name) a quarryman. I suspect that is as good as it gets from the 1901 census.

Regards
Valda


23 September 05

Good morning Thanks very much for the latest lookups, much appreciated. John W Wilson/Benn joined up, so far as I can tell, with the Northumberland Fusiliers but transferred to the Kings Own Yorkshire Light Infantry. He was still in the Northumberland Fusiliers when he married though in 1903 so the transfer must have come after that. He joined one of those two in Hull, I don't know which until I see the papers, but the word Hull did jump out. I will know more when the papers have come from Kew - I wrote yesterday and asked them how they would handle the request for printing - he might have been on an overseas posting in 1901 of course, and then come back again. I am hoping that a scrutiny of that set of scruffy writings will shed some light. Perhaps the address where a Nellie Wilson was staying was a hotel? Scarborough is full of hotels. She could have been on a bus trip? Maybe our Nellie was dead by then if you cannot find her on the census, or gone to Connecticut with Tiras as you suggested, or married to someone else? One sorts out one avenue of research only to find another half a dozen springing up!

Best wishes
Louise

[Valda]

23 September 05
 
The Northumberland Fusiliers definitely fought in the Boer War. However if he had enlisted he could equally be in Ireland or India or any 'far flung' part of the British Empire. There are around 122 Nellie Wilsons in Yorkshire in 1901 but Nellie in Scarborough is the only one born in the first half of the C19th. Probably the usual interesting coincidence. The other Nellies all have birth dates from the 1870s onwards. Working class widow and hotel don't really go together until the second half of the C20th and probably the Nellie you are interested doesn't go with the Scarborough 'home'. I'm not quite sure what sort of a place it was but these are all the people who were there census night. All single unless specified (including Nellie)Julia S Mackarness 64 Clapham, Middlesex, Head Hon. Lady Supt of Home Katherine E Haverfield 38 Shipton on Stour, Worcestershire, Niece Deputy Lady Supt of Home Caroline L C B Molineux 32 Kennington, London, Visitor Lady Nurse Henrietta Croghan 71 Maynoots, Ireland Visitor Widow Arabella G Berry 61 Market Bosworth, Leicestershire, Visitor Eleanor Beddows 45 Macclesfield, Cheshire, Visitor District nurse Annie V Turner 69 Brampton, Huntingdonshire, Visitor Nellie Wilson 56 Manchester, Higher Broughton Visitor Clara Hinton 45 Brighton, Sussex, Visitor Teaching Sarah Duncombe 68 Marston, Bedfordshire, Visitor Matron at Girls Home Annie Aubin 40 Jersey, Channel Islands Visitor Teaching Louisa Retallaile 44 Manchester, Lancashire, Visitor Companion with lady Hannah Walker 58 Tynemouth, Northumberland, Visitor Bessie M Aldersay 28 Paddington, London, Visitor School mistress Amy Batt 60 Shrewsbury, Shropshire, Servant Housekeeper Annie Moore 26 Manchester Rushbline Servant Parlour maid Emily Markham 26 Moulton, Lincolnshire, Servant Housemaid Rachel Bedale 21 Robin Hoods Bay, Yorkshire, Servant Kitchen maid Mary Forman 17 Hatton Holegate, Lincolnshire, Servant Nurse housemaid If Nellie emigrated with Tiras in 1891 you would expect her to take 10 year John Wilson with her.

Regards
Valda   


30 September 05

Hello all, I have been away for a week, did you miss me? Or did you use the opportunity to get some work done on your own families rather than mine! Great news, I have today received the wedding certificate of young Ellen Benn, who married Thomas Henry Wood in 1894.You might remember she was the youngest child of Samuel or maybe Benjamin Benn who was married to Elizabeth Quote from JAP as a reminder" Both being at Revy/Revey Hall - Samuel the head in 1861, Benjamin the head in 1871 - is very telling. I think that Revy Hall was mentioned in earlier postings for Benjamin in 1871 but not for Samuel in 1861. And Elizabeth still being married in 1891 but a widow in 1901 is helpful  and her father is given as SAMUEL BENN, "overlooker of weavers", deceased. Hurrah and twice again hurrah. So Benjamin in 1871 was clearly an accident of enumeration. And furthermore, Ellen's dad's occupation is exactly the same as that of Samuel Benn, the only one we actually know is MY ancestor, on the 1881 census in Bradford. Granted he was "weaving overlooker, out of employ" back in 1881 but I think the sense of the words are clear. Dare I say "By george, I think we've got him" (to paraphrase Rex Harrison in My Fair Lady)So, we have moved on a step to my satisfaction, my GGGrandfather was the father of nine children ex of Revy Hall, North Bierley. Furthermore this brings me to the belief that he is also the man in 1891 who was a lodger in Windhill, born North Bierley rather than Shelf (but a good guess if you were filling the papers in for someone else) and the man who died in 1891 of something horrible and pernicious. The next step is to decide who his parents were, and as I said earlier, I don’t fancy Benjamin and Mary, their Samuel having died years before. We didn't find him in Bradford in 1851 in my view, so perhaps he was still in Shelf, Halifax back then. I must go back and look at the entries the helpful rootschatter found for me in Halifax on another thread Very exciting stuff

Louise

[Valda]

01 October 05

Part 1 Using the limitations of only the IGI index, if you are not keen on the 1836 baptism in Bradford for Samuel - parents Benjamin and Mary Then in 1835 there is SAMUEL BENN Christening 20 APR 1835  Bradford, Yorkshire Father ABRAHAM BENN Mother RUTH and of course the more complex 1834 non-conformist baptism, still awaits in the wings (However the parents are Isaac Sharp and Martha Benn or Firth - the other Samuel Benn born Shelf circa 1830 on the 1861 census is the one with the son called Sharp - my interest in the name at last coming in useful perhaps) and other baptisms submitted by LDS members. 'Your' Samuel was in North Bierley in 1861 as was
RG9 3310 folio 54 HarbourAbraham Benn 54? Horton, Yorkshire, Head Married Coal Miner
Ruth Benn 52 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Wife Married
Martha Benn 21 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Daughter Worsted Steam weaver
Joshua Benn 20 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Son Coal Miner
Sarah Benn 18 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Daughter Cotton Weaver
George Benn 14 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Son Coal Miner
Ellen Benn 9 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Daughter

Next door are a family called Lister (all born North Bierley) Also in North Bierley are
RG9 3310 folio 5 Buttershaw Road
Benjamin Benn 64 Shelf, Yorkshire, Head Married Coal Miner
Mary Benn 58 Shelf, Yorkshire, Wife Married
Thomas Benn 20 Shelf, Yorkshire, Son Coal Miner
Esther Benn 23 Shelf, Yorkshire, Daughter Worsted Weaver
Harriet Benn 20 Shelf, Yorkshire, Daughter Worsted Weaver

Samuel Benn is at folio 15 Actually North Bierley in 1861 even has a Lister Benn at folio 48 aged 4 months. So the place has Benns and Listers coming out of its ears - ignoring the red herring Listers, there are 71 Benns in North Bierley and back in Shelf only 15 - 27 Benns in all born Shelf scattered about West Yorkshire. 'Your' Samuel has a wife born Horton, Elizabeth circa 1832 and three children Ruth born North Bierley circa 1855Margaret born Horton circa 1857Ann born Horton circa 1859 The only marriage on the incomplete FreeBMD  I can see that might fit but is a risk with other Samuel Benn's around (though their children are slightly younger on the 1861 census) is Marriages Mar 1854 Benn Samuel  Bradford Yorks 9b 91  Kellett Maria   Bradford 9b 91  Rushworth Michael   Bradford 9b 91 with the missing second woman's name. Following just Abraham's family and not Benjamin's onto the 1871 census. On the 1871 census naturally Abraham has changed his mind about being born in Horton but he does have a granddaughter Ruth living with him as well as the conveniently named son Joshua who may have had Samuel's son named after him.RG10 4440 folio 51 Not sure of address looks like Hemming something houses North Bierley Yorkshire  Abram Benn 63 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Head Married Coal Miner Ruth Benn 62 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Wife Married Joshua Benn 29 North Bielrey, Yorkshire, Son  Dyer Wool Ellen Benn 19 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Daughter Weaver Worsted Ruth Benn 16 North Bieley, Yorkshire, Granddaughter Spinner Worsted1881 census RG11 4433 folio 61Truncliffe, North Bierley, Yorkshire Ruth Benn 72 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Head Widow Joshua Benn 39 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Son Stuff finisher Ellen Benn 21 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Daughter Worsted Weaver On the 1891 census there is a Joshua Benn of about the right age in Bowling a stuff finisher, but naturally born Wibsey so I rather lost patience at this point, especially since he could be the retired stuff finisher in Shelf in 1901 born Bradford!!! From FreeBMD Benn, Abraham Record Type Deaths Age at death 73 Quarter September Year 1880 District Bradford County West Riding of Yorkshire Volume 9b Page 24

Regards
Valda

[Valda]

01 October 05

Part 2 So if you are going with Abraham Benn and Ruth as Samuel's possible parents I would search the 1851 census in North Bierley for them and Samuel and not Shelf and probably the same place again in 1841 (as much as one can take the word of anyone on these censuses as to where they are born - this is where Samuel's potential younger siblings claim they were born in 1861, 71 and 81 - admittedly as soon as Joshua moves from the place he changes his mind.......)The IGI gives a potential marriage for Abraham and Ruth ABRAHAM BENN RUTH BASTOW Marriage 14 AUG 1826 Bradford, Yorkshire though Ruth would only be about 17 (which would be great because of consent of parents) and Abraham 19 (which should also require consent of parents if he admitted to his age and this actually was the right marriage and not an older couple - if it was by banns it might also be worth checking there for any parents' mentioned not just in the marriage register).The children on the IGI in the same batch number as Samuel are HANNAH BENN  Christening 07 OCT 1833 Bradford, Yorkshire Father ABRAHAM BENN Mother RUTH and then two baptised on the same day as Samuel so likely to be late baptisms in the unlikely event triplets run in the family - hoping Samuel isn't a late baptism as well. BENJAMIN BENN Christening 20 APR 1835 Bradford, Yorkshire Father ABRAHAM BENN Mother RUTH JOHN BENN Christening 20 APR 1835 Bradford, Yorkshire Father ABRAHAM BENN Mother RUTH No potential Benjamin Benns but there is a John Benn born circa 1829 in Shelf and a John born circa 1832 in North Bierley on the 1861 census, but then there are a lot of Benns all in a 'confined' space so you would expect to find several named John.

Regards
Valda


02 October 05

What would really be useful would be to be able to look at the 1841 census for the whole of the Halifax and Bradford areas (I think that all the places in which we are interested should be included in those two larger areas?). The problem is that "our" Samuel's parents may very well not be in the IGI but would, we hope, be in the 1841 census...BENN seems to have been a fairly common name so there may well be more than one couple comprising an Abraham BENN with wife Ruth, and more than one couple comprising a Benjamin BENN with wife Mary (there are two Benjamin and Mary marriages in IGI though it could be the same man Benjamin BENN to Mary HARRISON, Halifax 1820 and Benjamin BENN to Mary WHITE Bradford 1834). I wonder whether any RootsChatter has access to indexes (if such exist) for 1841 for Bradford and for Halifax? Abraham BENN and Ruth- I thought we had pretty much settled on an Abraham and a Ruth being the parents of Samuel the miner who married Ruth of Northowram (daughter of John GREEN) and had a son Sharp. The family of an Abraham BENN and a Ruth from the IGI (all Bradford - LDS signifies a patron submission, IGI an extracted entry) are Father Abraham Mother Ruth Samuel b 1831 (LDS), Samuel bap 1835 (IGI)Hannah b 1833 (LDS), bap 1833 (IGI)Benjamin b 1835 (LDS), bap 1835 (IGI)John b 1836(sic) (LDS), bap 1835 (IGI)Mary b 1837 (LDS)The following family in North Bierley in 1851 (see page 3) may or may not be the same Abraham and Ruth. Benn Abraham Head Mar M 43 Iron Miner Yorks., Wibsey Benn Ruth Wife Mar F 42 - Yorks., Wibsey Benn Samuel Son Unm M 20 Labourer Yorks., Wibsey - born circa 1831Benn Martha Dau - F 11 Worsted Spinner Yorks., Wibsey Benn Joshua Son - M 9 Iron Miner Yorks., Wibsey Benn Sarah Dau - F 8 - Yorks., Wibsey Benn George Son - M 4 - Yorks., Wibsey The age of this Samuel (20 in 1851) would be too old for "our" Samuel. If we accept that "our" Samuel is the one who married Elizabeth, then he was listed as 25 in 1861, 34 in 1871, 41 in 1881, possibly the one listed as 50 in the 1891 census, and possibly the one listed as 53 at death in 1891, etc. However, an age of 20 in 1851 fits with the age of Samuel, b Shelf (and we don't seem to be able to place any reliance on birthplaces!) who is in the 1861 census in Northowram aged 31 with wife Ruth, and children Sharp, William and Grace. Unfortunately this Samuel BENN, the miner in Northowram, aged only 4 years between 1861 and 1871 while his wife aged 13 years (31 and 22 in 1861 both 35 in 1871). If the age of Samuel the miner in 1861 is correct (31) then the death of Samuel BENN, age 51, Mar qtr 1880, in Halifax (Northowram was in Halifax) seems likely especially noting that wife Ruth is recorded as a widow in 1881 (age now 43).If Abraham and Ruth in North Bierley aren't the parents of Samuel the miner of Northowram, then that Samuel is left without any parents ...FreeBMD not providing enough information for marriages of Samuel BENN and Ruth GREEN, or of Samuel BENN and Elizabeth, I guess it would need a search on 1837online, and ordering of the marriage certificate of the Samuel who married Elizabeth to find out the name of his father ...

JAP

[Valda]

02 October 05

Thank you for reminding me of the 1851 census for North Bierley (who said I lost patience with Joshua Benn in 1891 when he gave a birthplace of Wibsey)! You have a perfect match of names to the 1861 census except for Samuel who by then was I hope the Samuel with Elizabeth in the same village. To prove it is the same man on the 1861 and 1871 censuses and the 'older' man of the earlier and later censuses you are right a marriage is needed (and we have to hope there was one). The 1854 marriage is a risky bet but I don't see how you can cross check it on 1837online, without knowing Elizabeth's maiden name. As I said the other Samuels have children who are younger than Samuel and Elizabeth who have daughter Ruth born circa 1855.At this point we now know Abraham and Ruth were in the same village with Samuel who married Elizabeth (potentially 1851) through to 1871 and not with Samuel of Northowram, and that Ruth, the grandchild and daughter of Samuel and Elizabeth, was with her grandparents on the 1871 census - if not her then who, and where was she? That all makes them the more likely family unit, despite Samuel of North Bierley's age shifts. As there would seem to be plenty of Benns around and not all are on the IGI I'm not too unhappy about never knowing who Samuel Benn of Northowram's parents are, if it can be proved definitely who Samuel's of North Bierley's are. If not then we are back to the drawing board of elimination with both these men. BVRI for instance has this baptism BENN, David Birth Date 3 May 1832 Christening Date 23 Jun 1838 Shelf Primitive Methodist Father Abram BENN Mother Grace No sign of them by 1861. I haven't a clue who they are, so obviously there are Benns in Shelf we don't really know much or anything about.

Regards
Valda


02 October 05
 
Well ladies, despite your best endeavours, I feel it is still as clear as mud! I think my next course of action is to find the birth certificate of Ellen Benn who my gut tells me is John William/Wilson Benn's sister and find out her mother's maiden name. Or I could look for Margaret, Ruth or Ann's birth certificate - I seem to remember, without checking, that they were the older children of Samuel and Elizabeth. Then we have a maiden name and the chance to find a wedding - and then the name of Samuel's father! I should just throw in for total confusion that the birth certificate I got for a Samuel born in I think 1837ish, some 20 years ago, born in Holywell Green (south of Brighouse) was the son, from memory, of William Benn. I don’t know if I still have the certificate but do know that we have not had a single William Benn mentioned anywhere before, which means there are lots of Benns - including him - that we are not even aware of. So our man could be the child of someone we have not even seen yet - perish the thought.

Please advise
Louise

[Valda]

03 October 05
 
I wish I had entered these people as a data set in my genealogical program D I would have, had I realized how confusing it was going to get! At this stage it does seem that some more information is needed.1. Marriage certificate for Samuel BENN and Elizabeth</strong> (a) Even if this is obtained and the name and occupation of Samuel's father is revealed, it won't necessarily prove which family he belongs to (as there could be more than one person of the father's name and occupation). But it would be a good step forward! And names of witnesses might help. (b) Re1837online - I should have spelled out more clearly the way I was thinking. I've never used that site (my searches were back in the days of trawling through endless quarterly rolls of film) but presumably it would have all marriage entries for people called Samuel BENN in the right area around the right time? I'm not really experienced in purchase of certificates in recent times but my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) is that one could then order all such certificates BUT with the proviso that one only wants the certificate if the bride's forename is Elizabeth? (c) Alternatively one could purchase the birth certificate of one of the children of Samuel and Elizabeth in order to find out Elizabeth's maiden name - and then, knowing her maiden name, search on 1837online for a marriage of a Samuel BENN and a marriage of an Elizabeth X in the same place and quarter, and only then order the marriage certificate. A possible birth certificate seems to be on FreeBMD - for Joshua (7 months old in 1871) BENN Joshua, Dec qtr 1870, Bradford, Yk, Vol 9b, page 23.2. Some other suggestions?</strong>(a) Louise, you have the complete 1851 Bradford census CD so places included in Bradford have been covered. According to lists of Civil Registration districts on Genuki Bradford Created 1st July 1837.Sub-districts  Bowling Bradford Central Bradford East End Bradford West End Calverley Cleckheaton Drighlington Horton Idle Manningham North Bierley Pudsey Shipley Thornton Wilsden GRO volumes  XXIII (1837-51) 9b (1852-1930). Allerton (except 1892-98), Bolton, Bowling, Bradford, Calverley (except 1892-98), Clayton (1837-91), Cleckheaton (1837-91), Drighlington (1837-91), Eccleshill (1837-91), Farsley (except 1892-98), Heaton (except 1892-98), Hunsworth (1837-91), Idle (1837-91), Manningham, North Bierley (1837-91), Pudsey (except 1892-98), Shipley (1837-91), Thornton (1837-91), Tong (1837-91), Wilsden (1837-91), Wyke (1837-91) But do we have allthe Halifax1851 entries for an appropriate Samuel BENN?According to GenukiHalifaxCreated 1st July 1837.Sub-districts  Brighouse Elland Halifax Halifax North Halifax South Luddenden Northowram Ovenden  Rastrick  Ripponden Southowram Sowerby GRO volumes  XXII (1837-51) 9a (1852-1930). Barkisland, Brighouse, Clifton, Elland, Fixny, Greetland, Halifax, Hartshead, Hipperholme, Luddenden Foot, Midgley, Norland, Northowram, Norwood Green and Coley, Ovenden, Queensbury, Rastrick, Rishworth, Shelf, Skircoat, Southowram, Sowerby, Sowerby Bridge, Soyland, Stainland with Old Lindley, Upper Greetland, Warley. You did post a lookup request and received information re a couple of Samuel BENNs but the answer said that the information was not complete. I wonder if any RootsChatter has access to a complete1851 Halifax index (if such exists)?(b) I wonder whether any RootsChatter has access to 1841 Bradford and Halifax indexes (if such exist)? Would a lookup request be worthwhile?3. Re Ruth the 16yo granddaughter of Abraham and Ruth in the 1871.</strong>I suggested (page 1) that she was Ruth (6 in 1861), daughter of Samuel and Elizabeth. However, Valda, I think that (page 3) you suggested that she could be Ruth, daughter of Samuel #6/#8 who was with her parents Samuel and Mary in Farnley in 1861 i.e. that the Farnley Samuel was actually Samuel, son of Abraham and Ruth ... And you suggested some other possibilities for Ruth, daughter of Samuel and Elizabeth (including, of course, that she might have died between 1861 and 1871).

JAP



03 October 05
 
Hi, Just back from a short break and catching up on the Benns. Abraham and Grace Holmes are my lot I think. Married Bradford 1st Oct 1786 children all christened South Parade Wesleyan Halifax - (if you can find its location let me know) -Isaac 1789 - my line David 1791 m Hannah Ashworth 1811Betty 1794Hannah 1809Isaac m Grace Sharpe, their children all christened Whitchfield Wesleyan Methodist, Shelf, were -William 1817Hannah 1819Marke 1822 - my line Hariot 1823The above William would by age, be a contender for the cert. Louise bought for the Samuel b. 1837 ish. Unfortunately I only have the IGI details and didn't pursue him further. Queensbury (Qeenshead) is also in the equation because of its proximity and I think that some of the census details are missing from that area. (can't remember which ones) also I read that some of the other Bradford census details are incomplete (lost?). The transcribers used by IGI (Mormons) are as fallible as any other transcribers and although I have the greatest respect for the work that they have done I always bear this in mind.

Dave