Joseph Dyson Lister the Independent Zionist, census lookup

[Valda]

06 October 05

I have found a website where you can pay to search a whole heap of databases simultaneously, including Yorkshire burials, Kirklees census', all sorts, including the census for Halifax for 1851.www.familyhistoryonline.netWhat follows is all taken from their site - so respect for their copyright and all that! I have spent my full five pounds getting into all sorts of records, most of which I won’t put here just now because I don’t know what is relevant and what isn't it. But there are only two Samuel Benn's in Halifax in 1851 as Jap said.

They are, to remind you, 1851 census in Halifax. Township Northowram Address Chapel Street Name Benn Charlotte Status M Rel Wife gender Female Age 63 Occupation – Place of Birth Northowram County Yks deaf – Piece 2302 ED 1v Schedule 56 Folio 3922. Township Northowram Address Chapel Street Name Benn Samuel Status M Rel Head gender Male Age 60 Occupation Hand Loom weaver (Worsted) Place of Birth Northowram County Yks
– Piece 2302 ED 1v Schedule 56 Folio 3923. Township Northowram Address Chapel Street Name Benn Job Status – Rel Gson gender Male Age 10 Occupation Spinner of Worsted (at Mill) Place of Birth Northowram County Yks
 – Piece 2302 ED 1v Schedule 56 Folio 392 (poor kid having to work in the mill at aged 10). Township Northowram Address Chapel Street Name Benn Margaret Status U Rel Dau gender Female Age 30 Occupation Worsted weaver (By power) Place of Birth Clayton County Yks
 – Piece 2302 ED 1v Schedule 56 Folio 392 (I don’t think they are all deaf, I think that is a mistake)

And the second family. Township Shelf Address Lower Whichfield Name Benn Mark Status M Rel Son gender Male Age 28 Occupation Coal Miner Place of Birth Shelf County Yks
– Piece 2302 ED 2g Schedule 54 Folio 6382. Township Shelf Address Lower Whichfield Name Benn Mary Hannah Status – Rel (Dau) gender Female Age 2m Occupation – Place of Birth Shelf County Yks
– Piece 2302 ED 2g Schedule 54 Folio 6383. Township Shelf Address Lower Whichfield Name Benn Roda Status U Rel Dau gender Female Age 19 Occupation Power Loom Weaver Worsted Place of Birth Shelf County Yks
– Piece 2302 ED 2g Schedule 54 Folio 6384. Township Shelf Address Lower Whichfield Name Benn Samuel Status U Rel Son gender Male Age 21 Occupation Crabber Place of Birth Shelf County Yks
 – Piece 2302 ED 2g Schedule 54 Folio 6385. Township Shelf Address Lower Whichfield Name Benn Isaac Status M Rel Head gender Male Age 64 Occupation Coal Miner Place of Birth Shelf County Yks
– Piece 2302 ED 2g Schedule 54 Folio 6386. Township Shelf Address Lower Whichfield Name Benn Sarha Status M Rel Dau-in-L gender Female Age 22 Occupation Power Loom Weaver Worsted Place of Birth Shelf County Yks
– Piece 2302 ED 2g Schedule 54 Folio 6387. Township Shelf Address Lower Whichfield Name Benn Grace Status M Rel Wife gender Female Age 59 Occupation – Place of Birth Shelf County Yks deaf
– Piece 2302 ED 2g Schedule 54 Folio 6388. Township Shelf Address Lower Whichfield Name Benn Selena Status U Rel Dau gender Female Age 15 Occupation Worsted Spinner Place of Birth Shelf County Yks deaf
– Piece 2302 ED 2g Schedule 54 Folio 638 Then I looked at Kirklees in 1841 and found this family which I am sure is relevant, but cannot just work it all out at the moment. Kirklees is the borough for the area around Huddersfield which is no real distance away. Kirklees 1841 census  Address Brick Bank Head - Name Mary Jane Sugden Age 4 Occupation - Piece Number 1275/3 Folio Number 6 Schedule Number 178 Township Huddersfield Enumeration District 482. Address Brick Bank Head - Name Elizabeth Sugden Age 43 Occupation
 - Piece Number 1275/3 Folio Number 6 Schedule Number 178 Township Huddersfield Enumeration District 483. Address Brick Bank Head  Name Edwin Sugden Age 25 Occupation Blacksmith Piece Number 1275/3 Folio Number 6 Schedule Number 178 Township Huddersfield Enumeration District 484. Address Brick Bank Head - Name Joshua Benn Age 22 Occupation Cropper Piece Number 1275/3 Folio Number 6 Schedule Number 178 Township Huddersfield Enumeration District 485. Address Brick Bank Head - Name Samuel Benn Age 7 Occupation
 - Piece Number 1275/3 Folio Number 6 Schedule Number 178 Township Huddersfield Enumeration District 48I cannot stop just now to think what this all means as I am meant to be working.

Best wishes
Louise

[Valda]

06 October 05

Louise, The second second family is mine. I only had them back to 1861 so had missed some of the earlier ones Isaac b. 1789 and his wife Grace Sharpe b. 1792 are my 3x ggrandparents, their son Mark is my gggrandfather. If the son Samuel is your elusive rellie then here is the long sought connection. Martin is now on my address list and I have sent an email to Robert Chappel so I too am now making some progress

Thanks
Dave


         
06 October 05

Hello folks, Have just joined this site after being contacted by Louise. I have sent her the information which she has posted to this thread, so thought I'd better "show my face", so to speak, and if anyone has any queries they can contact me direct. Good luck in solving your issues.

Regards
Martin
         
         

06 October 05

I'm not sure any of that took us any further forward on the direct line for Samuel, though I am beginning to suspect as yet more historical Benns pile in, that this may be the first Rootschat thread that has attempted a localised one name study. We need JAP's eyes to check the detail of all of that to see whether Samuel, possibly the son of William and Mary (still unproven) and/or siblings is anywhere amongst it all. If its any consolation Louise I didn't actually check until yesterday that anyone was doing a one name study of the surname Benn. I am actually a member of the Guild of One Name Study's myself!!!

Regards
Valda
         

         
06 October 05

Hi Louise, Received your email. Yes, I am sure we are related to the same Samuel Benn. I must apologize, I'm on my third computer and lost my computerized data base of the family tree. I do have a hard copy that I'll have to pull out. I originally received census data from Bob Chapple. Also, my cousin Lewis Benn is very involved in our family history. I've not done much with my research as of late. What can I do to help? Or what information can I provide you with?

Sincerely,
Valerie Konchis

[Valda]

07 October 05

Welcome Valerie and also Martin. Valerie in your message of 1999 you stated these were the children of William and Mary Benn Elizabeth Benn(b. 1818) married James Isherwood(married 1851)Zillah Benn(b. 1820) married Charles Worsnop (married 1841) Mary Benn (b. 1825) married John Hartley Margaret Benn (b. 1832) Samuel Benn (b. 1833) - my gg grandfather - married Elizabeth Jowett (b. 1832 - Horton). They were married in Bradford, England Joshua Benn (b. 1837) I presume you have the baptisms of these children from somewhere and or a census entry for the family. We'd like to know the details (the census reference as well if you have it) You say this Samuel married Elizabeth Jowett - do you have their marriage details including the information on both their fathers? What details do you have of Samuel and Elizabeth's children? Which child of Samuel and Elizabeth do you descend from? Did your research show what eventually happened to Samuel and Elizabeth? We'd all like to know the details you hold on Samuel's early life to see if we can finally prove which Samuel Benn, Louise is probably descended from.

Regards
Valda


07 October 05

Hello everyone, welcome Valerie J and Martin Two new rootschatters, always good news Following Valda's tips yesterday about looking at those old and at the time seemingly unrelated posts on other sites, I contacted various people as you know. As well as Martin replying and Valerie posting in here, I have also heard today from Brenda whose husband is descended from another one of the 9 children - Ruth who married Adam Sugden (I knew that name was familiar somehow when I saw it on the Huddersfield census).She says I have a copy of the marriage certificate for Samuel BENN and Elizabeth JOWETT, which I assume is the one that you have sent for.23rd August 1853 at The Parish Church in the Parish of Bradford – I understand that this is St.Peter CE Church, Bradford, Yorks , and is now the Cathedral. Samuel BENN, 20, Bachelor, Mechanic, residence Horton, Father William BENN, a weaver Elizabeth JOWETT, 20, Spinster, Weaver, residence Horton, Father George JOWETT, a comber Married after Banns by W F Black curate .witnesses William Holmes and John Mitchell Their daughter Ruth was living with her grandparents in 1871. Bob Chapple originally had a bit of a mix up with the two Ruth BENNs born about the sametime. He had linked the wrong one to the above family. I had searched in the census and managed to sort it out. Samuel and Elizabeth BENN had a large family Ruth, Margaret, Ann, Zillah, William, Mary, Martha, Joshua and Ellen - I received the information from Bob Chapple about most of them. Ruth BENN was my husband's greatgrandmother. She was born Sep.1855 at North Bierley, married Adam SUGDEN in1873 and died 1880. She was the oldest of their many children, Ann one of her younger sisters married Leonard Ormondroyd. I think Val Konchis is descended from their son William who emigrated to America. Is this the same family that you are researching. If so, who are you descended from? I did some preliminary searching on the IGI on line and have a speculative family tree going back to 1764, but I have yet to search the parish registers to prove that they are the correct ones. The father of Samuel BENN was William BENN - according to his marriage certificate. From the IGI I have speculated that William BENN was married to Mary FOSTER in 1816William BENN was the son of Joshua BENN and Ann BLAMIERS who were married in1793Joshua BENN was the son of Joshua BENN and Mary Wilkinson who were married in 1764.I have said, this is information from the IGI and has not been checked out. Perhaps Valerie J can confirm those details? If we can prove to our mutual satisfactions that I am descended from Samuel Benn who married Elizabeth Jowett, and I am certainly moving that way, then I am related to Valerie J and to Brenda's husband as a third cousin but "on the wrong side of the blanket". I am interested to see which marriage certificate, if any, turns up as it won’t be the right date for the entry Brenda discussesB est wishes to all- I am feeling so very lucky to have so many people on my side on this one

Louise

[Valda]

07 October 05

Also, my cousin Lewis Benn is very involved in our family history
Oh dear, my third black mark, I knew another one was on its way. I was in written correspondence with Lew Benn some years ago but we did not make the connection. All I can say in my defence is that the man I was looking for was meant to be born in Shelf in 1840 and was living, at least for a while, in a different family unit. Whereas the man I was being offered was a married man with 9 children born in around 1833 with no suggestion of him having absconded. So forgive me for not spotting the connection straight away. I am now in a fever of speculation about where to go next and what to do next. I feel fairly confident that my Samuel is the man that married Elizabeth and then presumably left his family, but need your advice on what to try next. Perhaps Bob the one-name study man might be able to help. He could perhaps tell us for sure which of the other Samuels are which? I have been trying to sort this out for twenty years, it feels very close to resolution now

Very best wishes
Louise
         
         
07 October 05

Hi Louise, Not sure if you have this info, but I have been trawling through my Bradford Parish church records and have come up with the following BENN entries that I scribbled down a few years back. Don't know if they will help or hinder! St. Peter's, Bradford - Marriages 24 Dec 1866 Henry BARRACLOUGH, 23, Bach, Foundryman, Low Moor, Joseph, Foundryman Mary Ann BENN, 21, Spin, Low Moor, William, Bricklayer St. Peter's, Bradford - Baptisms1 Jun 1836 Samuel BENN s/o Benjamin &amp Mary, Shelf, Miner (born 26 Jan 1826) William BENN s/o Benjamin and Mary, Shelf, Miner (born 25 Sep 1830)

Regards
Martin
         
07 October 05 
For this to be the correct Ruth Benn in 1871 she has to have been enumerated twice in 1861, once with her Jowlett grandparents and once with her parents.

1871 census RG10 4472 folio 66125 Old Road Horton Yorkshire George Jowett 64 Halifax, Yorkshire, Head Married farmer occupying 10 and a half acres Ruth Jowett 63 Halifax, Yorkshire, Wife Married Ruth Benn 15 Wibsey, Yorkshire, Granddaughter Mill Hand William Jowett 6 Horton, Yorkshire, Grandson

1861 census RG9 3310 folio 3 0Beacon Road North Bierley Yorkshire George Jowett 53 Norland, Yorkshire, Head Married farmer of 5 acres Ruth Jowett 52 King Cross, Yorkshire, Wife Married Martha Jowett 19 Horton, Yorkshire, Daughter Power loom weaver stuff Mary Jowett 19 Horton, Yorkshire, Daughter Milliner Ellen Jowett 17 Horton, Yorkshire, Daughter Power loom weaver stuff George Jowett 15 Horton, Yorkshire, Son Jobber at a factory James Jowett 13 Horton, Yorkshire, Son Bobbin doffer Ruth Benn 5 Horton, Yorkshire, Granddaughter

1861 census RG9 3310 folio 15Revey Hall North Bierley Yorkshire Samuel Benn 25 Shelf, Yorkshire, Head Married Worsted weaver Elizabeth Benn 29 Horton, Yorkshire, Wife Married Worsted weaver Ruth Benn 6 North Bierley, Yorkshire, Daughter Margaret Benn 4 Horton, Yorkshire, Daughter Ann Benn 2 Horton, Yorkshire, Daughter

On the 1853 marriage George Jowlett's occupation is different from the 1861 and 1871 censuses as is Samuel's. Elizabeth is 20 on her marriage in 1853 (and therefore underage - the banns should give by consent of parents) - her age in 1861 is close enough. Samuel again with an age of 20 on marriage, signifying he is under age with a birth date of circa 1833 should have been 28 on the 1861 census. The marriage is nearer the later censuses birth date which are all nearer the necessary circa 1832 potential birth. Louise you could do with obtaining a copy of the Samuel and Elizabeth marriage and a birth certificate of Ruth and her marriage if Brenda has it - any certificates around in fact.

FreeBMD has almost nil coverage of marriages in 1853. You could also do with asking all these descendants what they think happened to Samuel and Elizabeth before you get too bogged down with all the descent lines from Samuel and Elizabeth.Whether they have baptisms for Samuel and his siblings

Whether they have Samuel and his parents a)on the 1851 census b)on the 1841 census. You need to have William and Mary on a census for their approximate age and to look for their deaths, before you speculate with the IGI on their marriage and baptisms. With so many Benns around and the fact that Samuel and his siblings’ baptisms are not on the IGI I think it would be dangerous to speculate further about the line before you try to tighten up ages and places as much as possible from the censuses. Can you find a William and Mary Benn on the 1851 census for Bradford? I know Samuel can't be with them, because you have already done a search for Samuel Benns and not found the right one. So can you find a William and Mary with any of their supposed younger children - ones not married e.g. Margaret (born circa 1832), Joshua (born circa 1837) or Elizabeth (born circa 1818) but didn't marry until later in 1851, or possibly Mary (born circa 1825) whose marriage date we don't yet know.

Regards
Valda

[Valda]

07 October 05

Louise...Don't know if the possible double census entry is throwing you, but to put your mind at rest I have found numerous instances of double and even triple entries in the census records throughout the years.

Martin


         
07 October 05 

Not sure of the relevance but King Cross is in Halifax near the town center. Revy (Reevy) Hall was very near what is now Beacon Road, Wibsey. Beacon road leads to Beacon Hill and Horton Bank Top passing over and to the right of Wibsey Slack with Harbour to the left (going away from Bradford). Old Road runs parrallel and perhaps 200 yards to the right. Even though officialdom proclaims new place names and boundaries the old ones are kept alive by the people. With an Harbour so close why shouldn't my Sam be a Crabber?  sorry I couldn't resist that one.

Dave

         
         
08 October 05

Hi Valda, I received my info from 1999 from Bob Chapple who provided me with information from a census. I apologize with my crashed computer and data base, I'll have to look up the details from the hard copy records that I kept. Also, I do have a copy of the certified copy of an entry of birth for William Benn, which is difficult to read but looks as though date of birth is July 8, 1863. The birth certificate indicates the father is Samuel Benn and the mother is Elizabeth Benn formerly Jowett. I descend from their son, William Benn. I'll go back through the items that I have and see what else I have on file. I don't have the details on Samuel's early life or the details of Samuel and Elizabeth's life, just the info from the census and William's birth certificate. Hope this helps for starters.

Valerie Konchis

         
         
08 October 05

Hi Louise, I agree that Bob Chapple may be able to help to sort out the Samuels. I emailed Lewis to let him know of your interest.

Valerie Konchis

[Valda]

08 October 05

The idea that Ruth (aged 5 or 6) was enumerated twice in the 1861 census sounds very likely. Perhaps she popped back and forth between her home and her JOWETT grandparents' place. One could just imagine Samuel BENN and wife Elizabeth carefully enumerating all their children (Ruth, Margaret and Ann) on the census schedule - thinking they were doing the right thing. And, at the same time, also trying to do the right thing, George JOWETT and wife Ruth carefully include granddaughter Ruth on their schedule because she actually slept at their place on census night ... With all the BENNs around, the enumerator was hardly going to notice the duplication ...Incidentally Revey/Revy Hall (as Reevy Hall) and Beacon Road (as Lane) can be seen on the Old Maps site at

http//www.old-maps.co.uk

Enter coordinates 413552,430247

For my own benefit I'm going to summarize on the basis that all of the Samuels below are one and the same person - this will also highlight inconsistencies of age, birthplace, etc.Ca 1833Possible birthdate of Samuel BENN (from age of 20 at marriage in 1853), possible father being William BENN (from Samuel's 1853 marriage cert).This might?? be William BENN who married Mary FOSTER in 1816 in Bradford (extracted entry from IGI).Possible children*Elizabeth b 19 Mar, bap Jun 1818, Kipping Independent-Nc, Thornton by Bradford (extracted entry from the IGI, parents William and Mary) - said to be an Elizabeth BENN who married a James ISHERWOOD in 1851 a possible child Zillah b ca 1820 Chatt Hill said to be a Zilla BENN who married a Charles WORSNOP in 1841 Mary b ca 1825 and said to have married John HARTLEY Margaret b ca 1833 and said to be a Margaret BENN who married an Isaac KELLETT 1849*Samuel b ca 1834 and said to be the Samuel who married Elizabeth JOWETT 1853  Joshua, b ca 1837 from age of 4 in 1841 (possibly the same as LDS submission for a John b 1835)1841 census From Louise's post, 2 Nov, on page 11This seems likely to be Samuel. Census 1841 HO.107/12922/2 p12 Brown Royd Hill, North Bierley Mary Benn  45 Elizabeth Benn 20 Stuff weaver Mary Benn 15 Stuff weaver Margaret Benn 8 Samuel Benn 7 Joshua Benn  4

1851 census We don't have Samuel yet in 1851. His residence was given as Horton when he married in 1853. 23 Aug 1853 Samuel BENN, 20, a mechanic, residence Horton, father William BENN a weaver married Elizabeth JOWETT, 20, a weaver, residence Horton, father George JOWETT a comber
(note in the 1861 census George is a farmer of 5 acres, and in 1871 a farmer of 10 1/2 acres)1861 census Samuel  BENN, 25, born Shelf, a worsted weaver is at Revey Hall, North Bierley. Wife Elizabeth, 29, born Horton. Children are Ruth ca 6 (enumerated twice - once with her JOWETT grandparents in Beacon Rd, North Bierley, as age 5 b Horton, once with parents as age 6 b North Bierley) Margaret 4 b Horton Ann 2 b Horton
1871 census Benjamen BENN (we believe that Benjamen is an enumeration error for Samuel), 34, born Shelf, is still at Revy Hall, North Bierley Wife Elizabeth, 39, born Braceland. Children are now Ruth 15 (a mill hand, b Wibsey, living with her JOWETT grandparents at 125 Old Rd, Horton) Margret 13 b Horton Ann 11 b Horton Zillah 9 b North Bierley William 7 b North Bierley Mary 5 b North Bierley Martha 2 b North Bierley Joshua 7 months b North Bierley.

Continued in Part 2
         

[Valda]

08 October 05

Part 2 So far it has been fairly straightforward – apart from Samuel growing steadily younger, Samuel being wrongly enumerated as Benjamen, Elizabeth’s birthplace changing, and their daughter Ruth being enumerated twice in a census. But now the plot thickens. It seems that Samuel BENN and his wife Elizabeth JOWETT separated - sometime between ca 1873 when Ellen, the youngest of the 9 children, was born (Ellen’s marriage certificate to Thomas WOOD lists her father as Samuel BENN, overlooker of weavers) and the time of the 1881 census. We have looked at all the Samuel BENNs in the censuses and what seems to be the inescapable conclusion is that Samuel BENN, husband of Elizabeth JOWETT, fathered Louise’s ancestor John William/Wilson BENN, b Feb 1881. Feb 1881 John William BENN is born in Bradford. John's father is listed as Samuel BENN. His mother is listed as Eliza BENN maiden surname LISTER. Eliza had married Thomas VIPOND in 1872. They had a daughter Ellen VIPOND in 1873. We do not know the fate of Thomas VIPOND. Eliza also had a son Walter Doughty VIPOND b 1879 Bradford (he d 1882 Bradford) but his father's name is blank on his birth cert. In 1881, Eliza’s son John William BENN was born. In 1884, Eliza, described as Eliza VIPOND, a widow, married John LONG. Ellen VIPOND was still with Eliza and her LONG husband and LONG son Joshua in 1891 but John William BENN was not. It is believed that John grew up as John WILSON he joined the army in 1899 as John WILSON. However, he married Daisy Kate HILTON in Scarborough in 1903 as John Wilson BENN and his father’s name was listed as Samuel BENN, weaving overlooker.

The puzzle of just what happened to John is yet to be resolved. Interestingly the witnesses at Eliza’s marriage to John LONG in Bradford in 1884 were a HILTON and a WILSON.1881 census Samuel BENN is at 26 Bank, Eccleshill. Samuel BEEN (sic), Master (sic), married, 40, b Shelf, Weaving Overlooker (Out of Employ) Eliza VIPOND, Wife (sic), married, 25, b Bradford, Worsted Weaver Ellen VIPOND, Daur (sic), 8, b Bradford, ScholarWalter D VIPOND, Son (sic), 1, b Bradford John W VIPOND (sic), Son, 1 month, b Eccleshill Elizabeth (JOWETT) BENN is at 77 Kingswood St, Horton in Bradford Elizabeth BENN, Head, married, 49, b Bursland With her are children Zilliah (sic) 19, William 17, Mary 15, Martha 13, Joshua 10 all b North Birley (sic) and Ellen 8 b Bradford also granddaughter Martha A SUGDEN 4 b Bradford.1891 census Samuel BENN, married, age 50, born North Bierley, a cloth weaver, is a Lodger at 20 Lane Bottom, Idle (Later edit the Head of household was Hannah ILLINGWORTH, a widow with children - she was b ca 1849 in Idle) Elizabeth BENN is at 10 Watmough St, Bradford Elizabeth BENN, married, age 59, b North Bierley With her are children Martha 22 b North Bierley, and Ellen 18 b Bradford.29 Aug 1891Samuel BENN dies at Lane Bottom, Windhill, Idle, age 53, powerloom woollen cloth weaver, informant is a Hannah ILLINGWORTH occupier of the same address.1901 census Elizabeth BENN, now a widow, is still at 10 Watmough St, Bradford but the head of household is her son-in-law, Thomas WOOD (Thomas had married Elizabeth’s youngest child, Ellen) Elizabeth BENN, Mother-in-law, widow, age 69, b HalifaxJun qtr 1901? Death of Elizabeth BENN, 69, in Bradford. Corrections, additions, alternative explanations?

JAP

[Valda]

08 October 05
 
Thanks JAP. I can save that section and work from that instead of continually going back to try and find information on the thread. The 1861 census does have a widow Mary in North Bierley which is another reason for requesting a search of the 1851 census for William and Mary. Having tracked this Mary to the 1871 census, I think she probably isn't Samuel's mother and it is just yet another Benn line (she might be the widow of a Joseph Benn instead who also married in 1818 in Bradford to Mary Lightowlers which I only mention because I think her surname is so wonderful - tough on probably getting Mary Foster instead Louise). With so many Benns in such a 'confined' area Benn speculation is frustrating and far too dangerous. From the 1861 census it seems both William and Mary had probably died pre this census.

Regards
Valda
   

      
08 October 05

From the 1851 census of Bradford this looks like the only Samuel who is a possible candidate from the area we have been looking at.1 24 162 1 Buttershaw Benn Benjamin Head Mar M 54 Coal Miner Yorks., Shelf1 24 162 2 Buttershaw Benn Mary Wife Mar F 48 Coal Miner's Wife Yorks., Shelf1 24 162 3 Buttershaw Benn Samuel Son Unm M 26 Weaver Yorks., Shelf1 24 162 4 Buttershaw Benn Sarah Daur Unm F 22 Weaver Yorks., Shelf1 24 162 5 Buttershaw Benn William Son Unm M 20 Coal Miner Yorks., Shelf1 24 162 6 Buttershaw Benn Thos. Son Unm M 16 Coal Miner Yorks., Shelf1 24 162 7 Buttershaw Benn Easter Daur - F 13 Weaver Yorks., Shelf1 24 162 8 Buttershaw Benn Harriet Daur - F 10 Scholar Yorks., Shelf Now could Mary have married twice into the Benn family ?Could children have been 'borrowed' from relatives to assist the family economy or to 'nurse' younger children? Don't forget that at this time children as young as 8 were working sometimes illegally full time and very often as half timers in the factories (Lydia Lightowlers age 8 was one of the victims of the Newlands Mill disaster 28th Dec 1883) incidently Manorley Lane is next door to Witchfield Shelf. A branch of the Lightowlers who are thought to originate from Blackstone Edge near Littlemoor, settled in that area and the name is still most abundant around there .It was not economically viable to take a mother or an older child out of work to nurse a baby so the younger children were often given the nurse task. Sorry if this throws more spanners into the works.

Dave
   

      
09 October 05

Hi Dave, Not too big a spanner! Louise posted the records of each Samuel BENN in the 1851 Bradford census (page 2) and an effort was made to eliminate those which could be ruled out. One of these was Samuel, son of Benjamin and Mary of Buttershaw - he is believed to be the Samuel who died in 1857 (there is a discrepancy in age at death vis-a-visage in the 1851 census but it looks like the right Samuel).The death entry was among several posts (page 3) of miscellaneous information which Louise had received from another BENN researcher. The information included the following Blackburn Register no 86 Shelf Parish Church...108 Samuel son of Benjamin and Mary Benn of Buttershaw died 5th October 1857 aged 26 Benjamin (above) died 7th January 1864 aged 67 Mary (wife of above) died 9th July 1894 aged 92 Google tells me that, ca 1930, an Arthur Blackburn transcribed tombstone and monumental inscriptions, covering about 120 churches, chapels, graveyards and cemeteries in the Bradford area. What would be good to find would be William BENN, father of the Samuel BENN who married Elizabeth JOWETT, in the 1841 and 1851 censuses.

Cheers,
JAP

Just to summarize entries in the IGI for Benjamin and Mary and the census family (IGI indicating an extracted entry, LDS a submission by a member of the LDS all events Bradford).Possible marriage Benjamin BENN m Mary WHITE 24 Feb 1834 (IGI) Yes, this marriage is later than the birthdates of the first three children perhaps Benjamin married two ladies called Mary with only the second marriage being in the IGI - there's the marriage of a Benjamin BENN and a Mary HARRISON in Halifax in 1820. Or perhaps the couple didn't marry until they'd had several children (note that all the baptisms postdate the marriage date). That's just speculation. Census children of Benjamin and Mary Samuel b 26 Jan 1826 (LDS), bap 1 Jun 1836 (IGI) - died 1857 (page 3) Sarah b 28 Aug 1828 (LDS), bap 15 Oct 1834 (IGI) William b 25 Sep 1830 (LDS), bap 1 Jun 1836 (IGI) - both those dates confirmed per Martin from Parish Register (page 7) Thomas bap 15 Oct 1834 (IGI) Easter/Esther b 15 Jun 1837 (LDS) Harriet - no record in the IGI In the 1881 census on FamilySearch, what must be the widowed Mary is in Orlean St, North Bierley in the household of her son-in-law George PETTY (husband of her daughter Esther)Mary BENN, Mother in Law, Widow, 78, born Shelf

[Valda]

09 October 05

I can't find Samuel either as Samuel or Benjamin and I can't see William or Mary. I've found Elizabeth who has married her husband and is giving her birthplace as Horton (perhaps her late marriage indicates the death of the last parent) and Zillah who also says born Horton. I can't find Mary as a Hartley or Margaret or Joshua who I presume died young, or in the case of Margaret married somebody. The Jowett family is more ameniable
HO 107 2310 folio 24633 M? Pond Horton Yorkshire George Jowett 44 Norland, Yorkshire, Head Married Woolcomber Ruth Jowett 43 Norland, Yorkshire, Wife Married Elizth Jowett 19 Barkisland, Yorkshire, Daughter P Loom Wool Worsted Jonas Jowett 16 Horton, Yorkshire, Son Mill Hand Margaret Jowett 14 Horton, Yorkshire, Daughter Mill Hand Willm Jowett 12 Horton, Yorkshire, Son Woolcomber Mary Jowett 9 Horton, Yorkshire, Daughter Ellen Jowett 7 Horton, Yorkshire, Daughter Martha Jowett 9 Horton, Yorkshire, Daughter George Jowett 6 Horton, Yorkshire, Son James Jowett 3 Horton, Yorkshire, Son

Regards
Valda
   

      
09 October 05

Well, I guess it's some small consolation to see that Elizabeth's Braceland or Bursland birthplace was actually Barkisland as Dave suggested)

JAP
         
09 October 05
 
Sorry, failing memory and too lazy to look back at all the ground that has been covered. JAP you must have a great filing / indexing system. 'Married in 1853 calc age 20' I looked at all the Samuels in South and South West Bradford with mother Mary and the one I mentioned was the only one of anywhere near the right age. How did we get to Mary? If we now assume that Samuel was not at home in 1851 and that William had died or had not yet married the widow Mary then this could be the right family
Again Bradford 1851 N. Bierley2 40 75 1 Slack Side # Benn Mary Head Wid F 53 - Yorks., North Bierley2 40 75 2 Slack Side # Benn Hannah Daur Unm F 24 Power Loom Weaver Stuff Yorks., North Bierley2 40 75 3 Slack Side # Benn James Son Unm M 22 Coal Miner Yorks., North Bierley2 40 75 4 Slack Side # Benn Rose Daur Unm F 19 Power Loom Weaver Stuff Yorks., North Bierley2 40 75 5 Slack Side # Benn Mary Daur - F 13 Worsted Spinner Yorks., North Bierley 2 40 75 6 Slack Side Benn Sarah ann G Daur - F 5 Schoolar Yorks., North Bierley 2 40 75 7 Slack Side # Benn Amos Son - M 2 Schoolar Yorks., North Bierley 2 40 75 8 Slack Side Speight Ruth Niece Unm F 24 Power Loom Weaver Stuff Yorks.
North Bierley Illegitimacy carried much more stigma then than now and Samuels mother would have wanted to put a father's name on the birth certificate - even if it was not the right one - Also Samuel would have wanted a fathers name on his wedding certificate even if that was not the right one. I have a grandparent down as the father on one of my ancestors wedding certs. Of course a copy of Yorkshire 1851 on CD would be the best way to go about this exercise or wait until Ancestry finally get 1851 on their site. Either way expensive. Note that Arthur Blackburns registers are a great source of research but only cover tombstone inscriptions. Most poor families could not afford a tombstone.

Dave