Alexander McKenzie, Market Gardener 1815 Morayshire, died 1890 Forfarshire

[kb0fhp]

I am confused. 

I looked up Margaret Hay death certificate in SP and determined that William Hay and Agnes Mason were her parents.  Also confirmed that her husband was Alexander McKenzie.

From the Baptism record, his parents were Thomas McKenzie and Catherine Edington.

In the census above it gives the various locations of the children's birth.  However, this is in conflict with the locations of the family search birth locations.  I suspect that the Familysearch is correct, as Kilfinnian is in Argyll and not Sutherland.  In the 1861 Ardclach, Nairnshire census (address Coulmony Mansion) it indicates the following:

Thomas age 12 Forres Morayshire
George age 11 Kilfinnan, Argyllshire
William, age 8 North Leigh Edinburgh
Alexander, age 8 Kirkinner Wigtonshire
John, age 5 north Leith, Edinburgh

Interestingly, this is the mansion of the Brodie's.  Perhaps this is where the mentioned litigation came from.  So far no record of it in my searches.


The family apparently moved around quite a bit - They were apparently in Midlothian, Argyll, Wigtown, those are the children from letters.    Was this normal?

Family search and the 1861, 1871 and 1891 census gives the birth location for Margaret Hay as Hopeman, Morayshire, or Duffus Morayshire.  I have looked for her baptism record with no luck.    But I have confirmed with baptism records that Alexander, husband of Margaret was actually born in North Berwick, East Lothian (Haddingtonshire).

Any suggestion regarding finding Margaret Hay's parents records of William Hay and Agnes Mason?

[Forfarian]

Are you looking at the images of the original census, or some sort of transcription? If the latter, you need to check the originals. Who knows what misreadings or mistranscriptions might have crept in?

As for Margaret's baptism, did you know (a) that Hopeman is in the parish of Duffus and (b) that the baptisms in Duffus from 1820 to 1854 are completely missing from FamilySearch, and also (at least the last time I looked) from the Scotland's People index?

I see that William Hay and Agnes Mason had a son Archibald, born in Inverness in 1816. Could he be the one who is in Forres in the 1841 census, a cooper aged 25 with wife Janet, son William, aged 1, and a 6-year-old Alexander Manly? They're still there in 1851, Archibald aged 35, born Inverness, wife Janet, and sons William, David and John.

Also note that the 1851 census transcription gives Margaret's birthplace as 'Sutherland, Bramocray'. I am tempted to wonder whether this could be a garbled version of Braemoray, which is in the parish of Edinkillie in Moray? And if so, why? It isn't likely that you could confuse Edinkillie with Duffus, but it's not as far from Forres.

this is the mansion of the Brodie's

It isn't the mansion of the Brodies - that is Brodie Castle, in the parish of Dyke, a little further east and in the county of Moray. Coulmony could have been occupied by a branch of the Brodie family, of course, but it wasn't their principal seat.

[kb0fhp]

No I didnt know that Hopeman was part of Duffus and that those parish records were missing....figures.  Perhaps that is why I can not find them.  At least the census records for the 3 decades were consistent.

There is a record of a Margaret McKenzie in the 1841 census in Duffus, Moray however this is before the were married (12 November 1847).  There is also Janet Hay in the 1841 with a residence of Duffus Moray, whose DOB is similar to Margaret.

I do find a 1841 census for William and Ann Hay (possibly Agnes) in Duffus, Moray as a mason, in the villiage of Cummingston. However Margaret is not there  However, he is located in the 1851 census, same address with a spouse of Ann Fraser.  He is also listed in the 1861 Census in Duffus as a mason.

I was not able to find the proper census for 1851.  By that time Margaret is supposedly married  12 November 1847 in Kilfinan, Argyll, Scotland.  This is also where their son's George and Thomas were born.  I have not yet pulled up the parish records on the marriage.

In all cases, I have been looking at transcriptions.

I knew that this wasn't the primary residence of the Brodie's - a coincidence.  This was from Samuel Lewis, A topographical dictionary of Scotland, comprising the several counties, islands, cities, burgh and market towns, parishes, and principal villages, "Coulmony House, the
property of Mr. Brodie, is a handsome mansion, beautifully situated on the river, and Glenfairness House is also a good residence. " p. 19.

At this point I am not sure where to go or look. I am not sure if this is a dead end or not - any suggestions?

[Forfarian]

No I didnt know that Hopeman was part of Duffus and that those parish records were missing....figures. 

No, you misunderstand me. The records are not missing. It's just that they are not in the indexes. Not that they are going to help much because your Margaret was born about 1817/8, which is before the start of the volume which was not indexed. However it could contain a birth of a younger sibling, or a reference to one of the family as a witness to someone else's baptism.

H e is located in the 1851 census, same address with a spouse of Ann Fraser. He is also listed in the 1861 Census in Duffus

In that case there ought to be a death certificate, and the certificate ought to tell you the name(s) of his wife/ves. There is, in fact, a record of the banns of William Hay and Anne Fraser/Frazer being called in both Nairn and Duffus in 1823. What this means is that one of the couple resided in Nairn and the other in Duffus at the time of their marriage. This might be a second marriage for William.

I was not able to find the proper census for 1851.

Have you looked on Scotland's People?

At this point I am not sure where to go or look. I am not sure if this is a dead end or not - any suggestions?

You are still a long way from a dead end.

Go to www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk, invest in a few credits at modest cost, and use them to find William's death certificate and the original(s) of the census(es). A brief rake around in the SP index suggests that he died in 1866 at the age of 79. This suggests a birth date of 1786/7, and I note with interest (a) that James Hay and Elspet Forsyth had a son William, baptised in Duffus in 1787 (b) that there is a 14-year-old Elspet Hay in the household in the 1841 census and (c) that http://libindx.moray.gov.uk/mainmenu.asp lists the birth of Elspet, daughter of William Hay and Anne Fraser at Buthills in Duffus in 1826.

You might be interested to see what Cummingston looks like now
http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NJ1368
http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NJ1369

(Make sure you don't confuse Cummingston with Cuminestown, which is a totally different place, in Aberdeenshire.
http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NJ8050)

This is Buthill http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NJ1365

I don't know where you are, but if you are not in easy reach of either North-East Scotland or Edinburgh, and you want to take a look at the Duffus baptisms between 1820 and 1854, go to www.familysearch.org and find out where your nearest LDS church Family History Center is. Go there and arrange to rent a microfilm of the Duffus parish register. You might find it useful to know that the parish number is 131.

[kb0fhp]

OH!  I am sorry - I did misunderstand you.  Perhaps it is additional justification to back to Edinburgh as I was in Edinburgh on holiday last October.  I think my wife would enjoy going back .  I live on the US East Coast so is only a 7 hour flight.  I am amazed you found so much information so fast.  I have only been doing this for 3-4 months now, and not familiar yet with the system in Scotland.  I wish I had some sort of rigorous guide to help me find my way - I appreciate the help.

I am not sure if that William Hay is the right William Hay.  All I have is speculation at this point - I strongly suspect it is, but not sure.  I have quite a few credits with SP - but I only get what I am looking for about 10% of the time.  Perhaps I am not doing it right, or using the wrong search terms. 

I have not tried the LDS Family Search Centers yet - there are a couple within 20 miles of me.  I will have to visit them.

You certainly gave me quite a few ideas - I will let you know what I find.

Thank you.

[kb0fhp]

I looked on SP and found the death record for William Hay that married Ann Fraser.  It listed his death in 1866.  No other wife was listed.  I have looked at many other death records and none indicated Agnes Mason.  I tried looking for death records of Agnes Mason - all parishes with no luck.  I looked on Catholic and Protestant parishes.  No record. 

I pulled up the death record for William Hay that married Ann Fraser.  I see that the parents were James Hay and Elspet Forsyth.  His son Alexander was present. 

I search on FamilySearch on the parents William Hay and Agnes Mason.  They show a Archibald Hay and Anne Hay born in Inverness.  So I go on SP and search for the marriage ban.  No luck. 

One thing that really throws me, is that there is a marriage record of Margaret Hay in Argyll but that is a long distance from Moray.  Were people, especially poor people, that mobile?

[kb0fhp]

I grabbed the baptism record of William born to James Hay and Elspet Forsyth in Duffus.  The wording is as follows:

May 23 1787
James Hay in Rosiste with his spouse Elspat Forsyth had a L.D. baptized and named William.  William Forsyth and William Carmichael.

Immediately above this record is one dated May 21 1785:

James Hay in Rosite with his spouse Elspat Forsyth had a L.D. baptised named Elspat Witness  Jas Harmond in Rosiale & Archibald Watson

What does L.D. stand for?  This is noted several times on the page.  Others indicate a son or daughter.  However most indicated L.D.

[Forfarian]

L D is Lawful Daughter, L S Lawful Son, i.e. born to married parents.