Clazie from France?

[heiserca]

You’re right: I invited speculation.  It helps keep the interest alive.  But also leads to frustration, gnashing of teeth, when the truth can’t be known for sure.   

The bell was made in Flanders, 1661, not delivered to Hutton until 1665.  Why the delay?  Maybe the Anglo-Dutch war you mentioned?  Or maybe the bell sat in a warehouse, waiting until the good people of Hutton raised money to pay for it?

This bell was not unique.  50 or so Burgerhuys bells are scattered around Scotland.  Perhaps bought in bulk by some kirk authority?

Jon Clazie was paid the princely sum of 16 shillings upon delivery.  How many drinks did that buy in 1665?  An online search yielded this calculation:  "One shilling in 1660 had the purchasing power of about £6.55 today."  If that is correct, he got £105 or $295.  More than enough for a drink!  Enough to cover a trip from Holland?  Or from Edinburgh?  We can't know for sure.

Few people could read and write in the 1600s, records were kept by the few literate ones, a priest perhaps, not the parties described in the record.  Spelling uniformity might not mean what we think.

[richarde1979]

I was under the impression the Bell was from Middleburg in Zeeland rather than the one in Flanders from your previous thread here:

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,573687.0.html


Certainly it's a strange coincidence the Clazie name first appears delivering a bell made in Zeeland, and the name, or similar, is linked with Zeeland in earlier records. The Anglo Dutch war breaking out at virtually same time would give a plausable reason for him not returning.

Here is the Great Yarmouth lists, published in Huguenot Society Proceedings Vol 5 No 3 1895, from a list of the 390 foreigners resident in Great Yarmouth, Norfolk in 1571:

A briefe declaration and certificate of all Strangers and Aliens which are dwellinge
YERMOUTH, within the burghe and libertie of Greate Yermouthe in the countye of Norfolk, made
the 12th daye of Maye, anno domini.i 1571, in the thirtene yere of the reigne of our
most gracious soueraigne Ladye, Quene Elizabeth:


46 Anthony Clase & Tankey his wif, fisherman, from Zealand, resident for one yere

48 Nicholas Clase & Margret his wif, fisherman, from ZeeIand, resident one monethe

52 Cornelis Clase, Katherine his wif & three children, and two men servants, one woman servant, merchante, from Zelande, resident for two yeres

61 John Clase, Nelky his wife & three children, plus one servant widow Herton Levers, a fisherman, from Zealande, resident for three yeres




Similar Stranger Lists were regularly drawn up in 16th century London, and the name also appears frequently there. The origin is not always given but when it is it is always the Netherlands:

1525
Thomas Clayse, stranger,

1541
John Clayse
Nycholas Clayse

1544
Nicholas Clayse

1547
Nicholas Clayse

1550
Willlhemson Claes, schoemaker, operating St Martyns int Castel.

1551
Garrett Clases, servant

Martyn Clays

1561
Jeronimus Claes

Jaspar Claes

1567
Derrick Clase, Duchman, serv to John Tawbote, new comer

1568
Elizabeth Clase, borne vnder the Busshop of Luke, and do go to the Englishe churche

Harry & Francis Claise,  Duchmen;  servantes with William Hopkins, gunner.

John Clayse, girdeler, borne in Hennaulde (Hanault), in Flanders, a denyson ; tennante to one Spencer,a cutler ; with Kychaell his wife, John, Sara, and Mary, his children

Henricke Clayse, denizen, and a silkewever, and Helyn his wif, bothe Duche; Mr Braunche ys there landlorde, and they goo to the Duche churche


1571
Cornells Clase, joyner, borne in Holland, haith byn here a quarter [of a year], and is a servant. Duch.

Peter Clayse, tooneman, of the age of  26 yeres, Hollander, haith bynne here 3 yere, and came to worke

John Classe, silkeweauer, and Mysaell his wife, borne in Flanders, have dwelt in the said
warde foure yeares

Elyzabeth Clase, of Fulkynburye, the wif of Jerom Clase.


Of course this also matches with the evidence of Dutch settlers by the same name at Colchester, Essex in same period. Obviously it was not an uncommon name in the Netherlands, and more than one family bought it to England in the 16th century.

[heiserca]

The spellings you cited are similar but are not known to have ever been used in Berwickshire.  They are found in the Low Countries and in southern England. 

My ancestor, George Clezie, was christened 27 Feb, 1787 at Hutton, Berwickshire, parents James Clezie and Helen Ker or Kerr, who married 20 Oct 1786 at Chirnside.

These contemporary records are from a notary’s office at Paris:

CLEZIÈ, Claude fourbisseur privilégié du roi x ROLLAND, Anne veuve, 20/05/1732

CLEZIE, Geneviève Emmanuelle x SORET, Pierre Etienne me-tonnelier, 22/06/1790, le mari défunt.

CLEZIE, Hélène Théodore x DEDOYARD, Henri Joseph compagnon orfèvre, 22/06/1790, épouse delaissée.

CLEZIE, Pierre Eustache me-fourbisseur x PARIGUET, Jeanne, 22/06/1790, tous deux défunts, parents des dames SORET et DEDOYARD.

Who were these French people?  No known connection but they have my family name!  Coincidence?

[richarde1979]

Heiserca

Yes I'd been through your old posts and seen those they are interesting. Again though I wouldn't get overly hung up on spellings at that date. I think it's almost certain your George Clezie is a decendant of the existing Clazie/Clazy/Clasie family in Hutton which appears to have been there from at least 1665. A plausible scenario can be made to argue that family have Dutch origin, alternatively they could be a native English family, perhaps with far back Norman origin. But French? Well it does not appear very likely. I think either it is a coincidence, it's just a similar name, or alternatively the Dutch/English/French forms do all have same very distant origin. You can however fairly firmly rule out any Huguenot origin in the 17th or 18th century, for this family, in any case.

[richarde1979]

Also in regard spelling

http://www.famillesparisiennes.org/patro/cl.html

On that same Notaries list one of those 'Clezie's' appears on a document the year earlier as 'Clesie':

CLESIE, Heleine Théodore x DEDOYARD, Henry Joseph compagnon orfèvre, 04/06/1789 , Succession d'Eustache Clésié, beau-père et père.

CLEZIE, Hélène Théodore x DEDOYARD, Henri Joseph compagnon orfèvre, 22/06/1790 , épouse delaissée.


This just further shows the 'z' and 's' was and to some extent still is fairly interchangeable in all written Western European languages.

These few instances do appear rare, I can't actually find any other examples of that name on any of the major French Genealogical sites, except those that lead back to Berwick! Since it is spelt with an accent in one instance it would probably have been pronounced quite different from 'Clazie' and I do wonder whether in fact it is just a rare variant spelling of ClOZIER/CLOUZIER which is much more numerous on the same list.

The same might be true for the islotaed example in south of France. I attempted to view the original at Aude departmental archive website but they have not yet put their registers online, though they are due later this year. I would suspect it might be a case that example is mis transcribed or a variant of a more usual name.

I would then question whether the surname truly does exist in France at all, I still think this is a red herring for your research.

[heiserca]

It is helpful to know that spelling fluidity was not purely a Scottish problem.  Our European bretheren could be equally flexible in writing their names.

I tend to agree, that a Dutch connection is more likely than a French one for the Clazie name.  In the absence of evidence, we are all reduced to merely giving opinions. 

Some of the remaining questions may be eventually be answered, as more records appear online. 

[hdw]

The following may be of interest to people following this thread.

I've just received the latest journal of the Scottish Local History Forum, and it has an item about a new project to research the Flemings in Scotland. A few extracts -

"Some estimates suggest that up to a third of the current Scottish population may have Flemish ancestors ... Towards the end of the sixteenth century another wave of Flemish immigration to Scotland took place. The root cause of this was religious persecution. In the wake of the Reformation a number of Flemish Protestants left Flanders in the second half of the sixteenth century. This was followed, towards the end of the seventeenth century, by an inflow of Flemish Huguenots fleeing persecution by King Louis XIV of France, as a result of the Revocation of the Edict of Nantes.

The Flemish in Scotland were concentrated, for the most part, in the North and on the East Coast ...

John Irvine and Alex Fleming are planning to undertake a 'bottom up' study of the Flemish in Scotland drawing on local history and genealogical sources. ... In due course an international conference will be held in St. Andrews ... Articles for the Local History Forum journal and a book entitled Scotland and the Flemish People, prepared under the guidance of the Scottish Institute of Historical Research at St. Andrews, will be produced ..."

Local historians and genealogists are encouraged to join in and share any relevant research they have carried out.

Harry

[heiserca]

Excellent, Harry.  I'll pass that news to a cousin, who uses the Clazey spelling.  She is a teacher, plans to return to university next year for post-graduate studies.  She may indeed be able to participate in the project you mentioned, as part of her thesis preparation.
 
 

[hdw]

Quoting from the article -

"Any local historian wishing to take part in the project should contact John and Alex via Email at * and * respectively."

Harry

* email addresses removed in accordance with Rootschat policy