Author Topic: QUESTION: Did 'Huguenots' settle in Scotland?  (Read 64988 times)

Offline brabason

  • RootsChat Pioneer
  • *
  • Posts: 1
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: QUESTION: Did 'Huguenots' settle in Scotland?
« Reply #36 on: Thursday 13 September 12 12:57 BST (UK) »
A very  interesting thread so I have joined today.  Perhaps a little late by the previous entry dates.

I have found on ScotlandsPeople there are OPR births for my family in south east Fife from 1603 (parishes of Kettle, Kirkcaldy, Kinghorn, Burntisland, mostly on the coast).  Name is Thallan with the usual spelling variations though the 'older' ones are spelled Thalland.  Modern name is Thallon.

The 1603 date seems a bit early for Huguenot links.  I have searched SCAN and GENUKI but there is very little this old.

About the Scotland / Northern Ireland links, there are many.  Other than politics, there was good commercial reasons for these links, basically it was safer to trade over the sea than travel by land through forests full of brigands.


Offline Skoosh

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,736
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: QUESTION: Did 'Huguenots' settle in Scotland?
« Reply #37 on: Thursday 13 September 12 15:25 BST (UK) »
Black's Surnames, has Thallon/Thalland in Fife from the 1580s but no guess at the origin.

Skoosh.

Offline heiserca

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 385
    • View Profile
Re: QUESTION: Did 'Huguenots' settle in Scotland?
« Reply #38 on: Tuesday 18 September 12 01:36 BST (UK) »
The surname Clazie is found in early records, at three widely-separated locations:
-1656 at Bram, Aude, southern France (baptism of a child, the mother named Jeane Clazie)
-1665 at Hutton, Berwickshire, southeastern Scotland (Jon Clazie delivered the bell to the newly renovated  kirk)
-1723 at Leeuwarden, Friesland, northern Netherlands (marriage of a man, Jean Clazie)

Records at Berwick-upon-Tweed show a Clasey or Clasie family, starting in 1670.  Despite the spelling difference, they might be related to the others. 

A later record at Hutton, Berwickshire showed the marriage on 15 Sep 1777 of John Clasie to Margaret Paulin, an apparently French surname.

As soon as we breathe the word "Huguenots", people begin the derisive laughter!  But how else to explain these names appearing in such diverse locations, within a short space of time?  Does anyone with access to 17th century French or Dutch records know the Clazie name?





Clezie (Clazie, Clezy, Clazy, Clazey, Claise, etc.), Lockhart, Heiser, Schwab, Tomon, Zarnowski, Megert, Iseli

Offline richarde1979

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 931
    • View Profile
Re: QUESTION: Did 'Huguenots' settle in Scotland?
« Reply #39 on: Tuesday 18 September 12 22:07 BST (UK) »
Hello (again) Heiserca

I do hope you do not think it was me who was being in any way 'derisive' in regard your contention this family may be Huguenot in your previous thread to this board. That was certainly not my intention.

As you can see from my own tag and many posts here I have very extensive experience and a wide knowledge of researching the Huguenots in the U.K and France, and a fairly extensive set of resources readily available to me to do so.

You can never say never on anything in Genealogy, but as an expert of sorts in this area, I do think it is fairly safe to rule out a Huguenot connection for this family, for a number of reasons which perhaps I should have explained a bit clearer.

The Huguenot refugees to the British Isles were in comparison with later refugee communities extremely well documented, they were generally literate (as the Protestant faith initially spread in France through books and pamphlets),  will have belonged to well documented congregations in France, and on arriving in their new homeland would have made it an immediate priority to join a congregation here, this was after all the reason they were fleeing to be able to worship freely. Contrary to popular belief it was never 'illegal' to actually be a Protestant in France, and only the pastors of the reformed faith faced execution if found to be holding services or evangelizing for the faith, within the Kings borders. In fact, due to this, nine out of ten French Protestants actually remained in France, worshiping secretly, and it was very much the minority who fled.


The survival rate of Huguenot registers in Britain is extremely good. The name Clazie never appears anywhere amongst the documents of Huguenot congregations of either France of Britain, therefore it is fairly safe to rule your family out on that basis alone, as the chances of them being Huguenots and appearing in neither are next to nothing.


In addition, there is also the issue of timing. You have a John Clazie in Hutton 1665. The main Huguenot exodus to England occurred only after the Revocation of the Edit of Nantes in 1685. It is true some Huguenots fled earlier than this, for example during the French religious wars 1562-1598 and the fall of La Rochelle in the 1620's. However we are talking very small amounts of people here, who were again very well documented and the Clazie's were not amongst them. Protestantism had a more or less full legal existence in France between 1598-1685 so there was really little reason to flee during the majority of that time.

True Louis XIV began his persecutions earnestly in the early 1660's, but they were slow building in intensity and severity, and few refugees come in any significant numbers until about 1678, partly due to the fact this was when the Kings own Catholic faith was 'renewed' due to his new mistress Madame Maintanont, though probably most significantly this was the first time the King's armies were not tied up in his many foreign conflicts and were therefore available to persecute the domestic 'religious' problem as he by then saw it. So a first appearance of a Huguenot name in 1665, especially found outside of London and the existing communities, really doesn't  fit well.

Bellenger, Sebire, Soubien, Mallandain, Molle, Baudoin - Normandy/London
Deverdun, Bachelier, Hannoteau, Martin, Ledoux, Dumoutier, Lespine, Montenont, Picard, Desmarets - Paris & Picardy/Amsterdam/London
Mourgue, Chambon, Chabot - Languedoc/London

Holohan, Donnelly, McGowan/McGoan - Leitrim, Ireland/Dundee, Scotland/London.

Gordon, Troup, Grant, Watt, McInnes - Aberdeenshire, Scotland/London


Offline richarde1979

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 931
    • View Profile
Re: QUESTION: Did 'Huguenots' settle in Scotland?
« Reply #40 on: Tuesday 18 September 12 22:08 BST (UK) »
Also to add to above, as already mentioned in our last posts together, the very idea of Huguenot refugees trekking from Languedoc to Northern England or Scotland is in itself highly unlikely. It was illegal for Huguenots to flee the Kingdom, they risked detection and imprisonment all the way, so  they obviously took the closest form of escape possible. In the south this was the land border to Geneva the spiritual homeland of their faith. Instead trekking all the way up through the entirety of France into Holland or even undertaking a long clandestine boat journey to the British Isles, for most, if not all, would simply have not been an option.

I have myself done a thorough study into the place of origin of the Huguenots who joined the main congregation of Threadneedle Street in London, who had testimonials from their congregations in France, with the following results:


Normandy   946
Paris           714
Poitou      417
Picardy      284 (But up to 1,400 possible as many Picard Huguenots fled first Holland)
Saintonge   100
Loire            100   
Languedoc   75
Nord             58
Champagne  49
Gascony        42
Brittany         24
Lyons            20


As you can see generally the further away from Britain, as might be expected, the less likely Huguenots were to flee there. Indeed 65 or the 75 Huguenots from Languedoc were from Nimes, a Protestant stronghold in the south, and were almost without exception bought all the way to Britain under very extraordinary circumstances. My own ancestor was one of these few,  he and his family was bought there along with 15 others of that 75, when Queen Caroline personally intervened for their asylum in a case 'famous Europe wide' with books written about it. Likewise most of the others also came in groups in similar large scale, unusual and very well documented incidents of extraordinary persecutions. The chances the Clazies came from such a far flung place, either alone or in a group, but entirely undocumented, are next to nil.

Also from your earliest record your Clazie's are involved with and using the Anglican church. If Huguenots you'd have to ask why? The Huguenots were Calvinists. They would have fled to practice Calvinism. Anglicanism they viewed as only one step up from Catholicism, it was in many ways just the Catholic Church minus the pope. They viewed Catholicism as Anti-Christ, and Anglicism only marginally better.
 
Again you can never rule anything totally out. But since you have other much more plausable explanations for your Clazie's family's origins in Berwick, I do think you risk wasting your time in continuing to look for a French link, well certainly a Huguenot French one at any rate.

In short for the three examples you have found to be seen as possible evidence for a Huguenot link, you'd have to believe several things. That the family came from a very unlikely place of origin, (Languedoc), to an even more unlikely place of refuge (Berwick), whilst leaving no trace or documentation of their move (for Huguenots extremely unlikely in itself), at a very unlikely time for Huguenot immigration to the British Isles, and to top it all off were quite happy to settle in a place where they had no means of worshiping amongst their own brethren, in their own faith, even though this would have been the prime, probably only, reason for their initial flight! It just doesn't add up at all.

Hope that explains my views on it clearer so you can see I was not being hasty or dismissive towards the idea of Huguenot origin for this family, just giving you my genuine view based on my own experience and knowledge in this area.

Regards

Richard
Bellenger, Sebire, Soubien, Mallandain, Molle, Baudoin - Normandy/London
Deverdun, Bachelier, Hannoteau, Martin, Ledoux, Dumoutier, Lespine, Montenont, Picard, Desmarets - Paris & Picardy/Amsterdam/London
Mourgue, Chambon, Chabot - Languedoc/London

Holohan, Donnelly, McGowan/McGoan - Leitrim, Ireland/Dundee, Scotland/London.

Gordon, Troup, Grant, Watt, McInnes - Aberdeenshire, Scotland/London

Offline heiserca

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 385
    • View Profile
Re: QUESTION: Did 'Huguenots' settle in Scotland?
« Reply #41 on: Wednesday 19 September 12 01:07 BST (UK) »
Unfortunately, opinions and generalities are easy to provide.  Evidence is harder to find.  We continue holding out for evidence.

The Clazie name has been present in southern Scotland since at least 1665, and at Berwick-upon-Tweed around the same time. Now finding exactly the same name in France and the Netherlands was a distinct surprise!  How to explain the remarkale coincidence?   

No preconceived ideas - a wide-open question: what explains finding exactly the same (unusual) name in France, Netherlands & Scotland, all between 1665-1723?

The Clazies in Scotland were Presbyterian, with very rare exceptions. Their background is consistent with Huguenot heritage but by itself proves nothing.
Clezie (Clazie, Clezy, Clazy, Clazey, Claise, etc.), Lockhart, Heiser, Schwab, Tomon, Zarnowski, Megert, Iseli

Online Rena

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 4,804
  • Crown Copyright: www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: QUESTION: Did 'Huguenots' settle in Scotland?
« Reply #42 on: Wednesday 19 September 12 01:40 BST (UK) »
You might like to google and read about John Knox, the Scottish Catholic priest who introduced Presbyterianism into Scotland after he travelled to Europe and discussed religion with European protestants against Catholicism.   You will see he was spared death by his catholic Monarch who instead sentenced him to ply the oars of a French ship for two years.  As for Berwickshire in northern England -  He preached at various places, amongst them was at Durham Cathedral, in northern England and also in Edinburgh, Scotland.  If my memory serves me correctly I believe he also spread the word in Geneva.
Aberdeen: Findlay-Shirras,McCarthy: MidLothian: Mason,Telford,Darling,Cruikshanks,Bennett,Sime, Bell: Lanarks:Crum, Brown, MacKenzie,Cameron, Glen, Millar; Ross: Urray:Mackenzie:  Moray: Findlay; Marshall/Marischell: Perthshire: Brown Ferguson: Wales: McCarthy, Thomas: England: Almond, Askin, Dodson, Well(es). Harrison, Maw, McCarthy, Munford, Pye, Shearing, Smith, Smythe, Speight, Strike, Wallis/Wallace, Ward, Wells;Germany: Flamme,Ehlers, Bielstein, Germer, Mohlm, Reupke

Offline richarde1979

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 931
    • View Profile
Re: QUESTION: Did 'Huguenots' settle in Scotland?
« Reply #43 on: Wednesday 19 September 12 09:22 BST (UK) »
Unfortunately, opinions and generalities are easy to provide.  Evidence is harder to find.  We continue holding out for evidence.

The Clazie name has been present in southern Scotland since at least 1665, and at Berwick-upon-Tweed around the same time. Now finding exactly the same name in France and the Netherlands was a distinct surprise!  How to explain the remarkale coincidence?   

No preconceived ideas - a wide-open question: what explains finding exactly the same (unusual) name in France, Netherlands & Scotland, all between 1665-1723?

The Clazies in Scotland were Presbyterian, with very rare exceptions. Their background is consistent with Huguenot heritage but by itself proves nothing.


Heiserca, preconceived ideas is precisely what is slipping you up here. You appear to have made your mind up that a name appearing in three separate places indicates a strong possibility of a Huguenot origin. It doesn't. As a very experienced Huguenot researcher  I can tell you firmly that this scenario is virtually impossible, and I have set down in great detail for you why, with a thorough explanation. This is not a generalised opinion, I have  in fact searched thoroughly through the complete publications of the Huguenot Society of GB & Ireland, including lists of Scottish and North English congregations and refugees, several private databases in my possession not published by the Huguenot Society, and every French website and database, which are plentiful, containing Huguenot congregations.

What sort of evidence are you hoping would appear? I fear you are waiting for evidence that will never come. If they were a Huguenot family they would appear in the Huguenot registers of France and England,or even Holland, and they do not.

Trust me your wasting your time following that route it is a dead end.

Bellenger, Sebire, Soubien, Mallandain, Molle, Baudoin - Normandy/London
Deverdun, Bachelier, Hannoteau, Martin, Ledoux, Dumoutier, Lespine, Montenont, Picard, Desmarets - Paris & Picardy/Amsterdam/London
Mourgue, Chambon, Chabot - Languedoc/London

Holohan, Donnelly, McGowan/McGoan - Leitrim, Ireland/Dundee, Scotland/London.

Gordon, Troup, Grant, Watt, McInnes - Aberdeenshire, Scotland/London

Offline richarde1979

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 931
    • View Profile
Re: QUESTION: Did 'Huguenots' settle in Scotland?
« Reply #44 on: Wednesday 19 September 12 10:05 BST (UK) »
 "wide-open question: what explains finding exactly the same (unusual) name in France, Netherlands & Scotland, all between 1665-1723?"

In regard that I think we already covered much of that. The fact is you have a single isolated example in France for that time period. No evidence it was ever more widespread, it may simply be a mistake in the register, you'd need to check the original.

In Hutton the name appears, under various spellings, from the earliest parish registers that exist:


    Births: 1700 to 1854.
    Marriages: 1702 to 1788 and 1798 to 1854.
    Deaths: 1702 to 1765 and 1798 to 1854


And there is a single mention in the church minutes which exist starting from 1649, (dating 1665)

This in itself then just shows the family existed in the village from the earliest records onwards. It is no indication of when they arrived. They could well have been there from the very beginnings of the church in the 13th century and before, we simply don't have records of that. Certainly the name Clayce, Clase, Clasie are all in use in England before that time, which could point towards a purely domestic origin.

Alternatively, it could have a Dutch origin, as we know protestant Clase/Claes families came over in the 16th century to the east coast of the British isles and settled. Your John Clazie first appears delivering a bell from Holland, at the same time war breaks out which cut off the trading routes to Holland. The isolated example of 'Clazie' spelling in Holland too, might indicate this was an alternative spelling there. But it does not ever appear in one of Hollands Huguenot churches or in an area of Huguenot settlement there.


Bellenger, Sebire, Soubien, Mallandain, Molle, Baudoin - Normandy/London
Deverdun, Bachelier, Hannoteau, Martin, Ledoux, Dumoutier, Lespine, Montenont, Picard, Desmarets - Paris & Picardy/Amsterdam/London
Mourgue, Chambon, Chabot - Languedoc/London

Holohan, Donnelly, McGowan/McGoan - Leitrim, Ireland/Dundee, Scotland/London.

Gordon, Troup, Grant, Watt, McInnes - Aberdeenshire, Scotland/London