Welsh Naming System - I need help!

[Dean1]

I have looked long a hard for some years for a relative who was supposed to be Welsh - I think today he has been possibly found.

He is James Rowland(s) b 1763 ? Wales.
I have found James Mills Rowlands born 22.5.1762 Garthbeibio, Montgomery Wales.   His father is Rowland Mills.   His mother is Sinah.   Is Sinah a Welsh name or is it Sarah mistranscribed?

I think this is the correct chap but am unable to find out much more.   I found a Rowland Mills b 1730 in Stamford, Lincolnshire (Stamford features a lot in this Tree) but I do not think it is his father because a) he is married to a Sarah Cooke and b) the children on this Tree are all Mills - no Rowland surnames or first names.

I think the surname of Sinah/Sarah may turn out to be Webster because one of James b 1763's children had the middle name Webster and it was not either of James' wives maiden names.   The name Evans also figures in this Tree and  also possibly Davies/Davis/Davyes.   Evans and Davies appear where the family is in Shropshire and there is a census where one of the Rowlands is featured visiting a Davies in Cemmies in 1901.

Can anyone point me in the right direction please, I am totally bewildered in this new territory and just to make things worse all of the males so far have been military so move around.

Sue

[osprey]

did you find that record on the IGI? On the older version of the IGI, a patronymic naming system is assumed before 1813 whether or not it would have been in use in that area. Another transcription of that baptism has the child with the surname Mills which is far more likely and the register has the surname Mills for the child. The mother's first name is Sinah. You could check out FreeBmd to see how often it occurs - over a thousand instances, so no, it's not's an error.

[Dean1]

 I found it on FSOrg which is the newer version of the IGI. 
I actually found a Tree on Mundia with what may have been James brother a John Rowlands and on yet another Tree he was John Mills and all the children were Mills.

Not sure how I am going to work my way through the variations from Wales or Utah!   Was so excited and now I am deflated!

Many thanks for putting me on the right track.

Sue

[osprey]

well, at least you haven't gone generations back from the baptism only to find out afterwards that the family was Mills. Personally, I wouldn't use other people's trees for research, unless they were very well resourced. Not just a pinch of salt needed in many cases, a pound or more is nearer the mark. Just because it's published, doesn't mean the tree is correct.

Do you have a more accurate place of birth than just Wales? What info do you have on James?

[Dean1]

The place of birth I found today for James Mills Rowland (up until then just James Rowland b c1765) was Garthbeibio, Montgomeryshire.   Rumour up until then was only that Montgomeryshire was involved and it was and still is suspected that he joined the Montgomery Militia in Newtown, Mtgy, then South Wales Borderers and then Royal South Lincs Militia (hence the Lincs connection).   He served in Napoleonic Wars in Salamanca - wounded - no records found.
The year of birth is earlier than thought - 22.5.1762.
He is on the 1841 census in Great Baddow, Essex (as James Rowland b "out of ?county/country") where he died in 1846.
Married twice:  1. Elizabeth Joceylin (Joslin) of Essex - married in Bishops Stortford in 1794.   Oldest son Robert Joslin Rowland b 1797 Stamford All Saints, Lincs.   2. Hannah Mabbs - married 1815 in Gt. Baddow, Essex.   Numerous children - most males military.   Died 1846 Gt. Baddow, Essex.
His mother is Sinah on the entry I found (FSOrg:  Index C09057-1, Wales-ODM, Source film no. 104784).   Father's name given as Rowland Mills.
Almost all the male children and James himself were Tailors and some were Sgt Master Tailors in the Army, including him.   Originally his name was spelt with an "s" at the end but some lines of the family seem to have dropped it, including James and all his children.

Sue

[Pejic]

Quite often in Wales (at least in the 18th Century) the child of (say) Isaac James would have been (say) Davd Isaacs.  So a list by generation could be
James Williams
Isaac James
David Isaacs
Fred Davies

Doen't make it any easier does it?

[Dean1]

I am getting seriously worried!

How on earth did people other than their parents know to whom all these differently named children belonged.   I always thought it was a rather nice way to keep the family names going but not so sure now .................

Sue

[osprey]

but all the children of Isaac would be called Isaacs, so not so difficult. Anyway, it's not the case in the Garthbeibio baptism. The FamilySearch transcription has assumed, incorrectly, a patronymic . The original has Mills as the child's surname. The final s on surnames certainly isn't fixed at this time. I've seen families who appear on early census as David, then are Davies in 1861.

I doubt he was in the South Wales Borderers. They came into being in 1881.

http://www.rrw.org.uk/regiment/history.htm

 

[Hystericalwriter]

I am getting seriously worried!

How on earth did people other than their parents know to whom all these differently named children belonged.   I always thought it was a rather nice way to keep the family names going but not so sure now .................

Sue

If you are seriously interested in the naming patterns of the Welsh, the excellent book by John & Sheila Rowlands "Welsh Family History" second edition has a whole chapter on this subject.........makes interesting reading.

" Daughters were known by their father's name" (p60) and "a free Welshman would know not only his father's names, but those of his earlier male ancestors, and he would be able to recite his name as a patronymic string" (p60)

This book doesn't give the ways to research Welsh FH other than to say to go from the known to the unknown in the traditional way........

Anne