James Alexander MILNE - HMS Britannic

[Lorna1320]

This has got me really confused and frustrated.

I was told that James Alexander Milne (my Great-Grandmother's brother, b. 1883, Edinburgh and died 1922, Edinburgh) was a Master Mariner, also he was Master-At-Arms as well as being aboard HMS Britannic when she was torpedoed!  He also wore a naval uniform as the family have a badge off his uniform which could be that of the White Star line.

Now here is the confusing part!  I can find no trace of him in the National Archives under Merchant Navy Seamen (1835-1941), infact under Ancestry - there is again no record of him.

I did find him on the HMS Icarus in 1901 in Hawaii aged 19 years - a Qualified Signalman - born in Edinburgh.  This is the ONLY record I have found for him - but I have no service number.  In 1911 in Aberdeen (which was where he was living with his wife and children) he is noted as being a Fisherman/Trawler - no naval occupation at all!

I was told that he was Man-At-Arms on HMS Britannic - but again I can find no record of him amoungst any 'crew' lists I have found. 

I have his occupation in 1907 (the year of his marriage) as a Trawler/Fisherman - it is only after 1911 that his occupation changes to 'Master Mariner'.  He is not listed under the online index of Lloyds Captains Registers either so he cant be a Master Mariner.

Now this leaves me with nothing concrete.  He MUST have been a sailor in the first world war as he wore a uniform those badges resembled the White Star Line. 


Things we know/ hold for James Alexander Milne:

•   Button off a Merchant Navy uniform (Burgee with a Star in the centre) – could be connected with the house flag of the White Star Line (later Cunard Steamship Company) or the house flag of the Aberdeen & Commonwealth Steamship Co Ltd (owners of the ill-fated ‘Jervis Bay’ which sacrificed itself and all her crew to save a convoy under attack by the German battleship ‘Schamhorst’ in the early days of the second world war).
•   Photograph of James Alexander Milne (looking much older than his 40 years)
•   Information from the family to suggest he was a Freemason and held a high rank.
•   Confirmations of occupation on marriage/birth certificates of his children and James Alexander Milne’s death certificate in 1922 and later his wife’s death certificate
•   Young photo of him taken with his family in Sea Cadet uniform
•   Conflicting information from family members who say he was a Master Mariner/Master-at-Arms or with the Royal Navy or Seaman (Master)
•   Information from  late Mr Ian G Hughes who did research on the ‘Britannic’ but hit a dead end with his service record
•   He was unemployed from the sinking of the ‘Britannic’
•   Presented with the Aegean Star WW1 Medal (1914-1915) – found on Ancestry.co.uk


1901 Census he is listed under the crew of HMS ICARUS stationed in Honolulu Hawaii Islands.  He is aged 19 years, single and a qualified signalman, born Edinburgh, Scotland. 


Timeline:-

1883   Birth – Edinburgh

1891   Census – 11 Upper Grove Place, Edinburgh
   James Milne aged 8 years old

1901   Census - Royal Navy on board HMS Icarus
   Occupation noted as ‘Qualified Signalman’
   Location: Honolulu Hawaii Islands
   Age: 19 years   Born in Edinburgh, Scotland

1907   Marriage to Mary Duffus Graham
      Occupation noted as Trawl-Fisherman

1908   Birth of Alexander Graham Milne, Aberdeen
      Occupation stated on certificate: Fisherman

1911   Census of 18 Links Street, St Clements District, Aberdeen
   James A Milne   28   M   Head   Fisherman/Trawler   b. England
   Mary Milne   25   M   Wife            b. Aberdeen
   Alexander Milne   3   -   Son            b. Aberdeen
   Elizabeth Graham   65   W   Mother-in-law         b. Banffshire, Portsoy
   Occupation as stated on the Census return: Fisherman (Trawler)
   (His place of birth is incorrect – probably a transcription error should be Edinburgh)

1911   Birth of Elizabeth Graham Milne, Aberdeen
      Occupation stated on certificate: Fisherman (present at birth)


1912   Birth of Mary Duffus Graham Milne, Aberdeen
   Occupation stated on certificate:

1914-1915   Received the Aegean Star (WW1 Medal) which was awarded for services rendered in the theatres of war between 5th Aug 1914 and 31st Dec 1915.

1915   Birth of Nellie Milne, Aberdeen
   Occupation stated on certificate:

1917   Birth of John Alexander Milne, Aberdeen
   Occupation stated on certificate:

1920   Birth of Jeannette Clark Milne, Aberdeen
   Occupation stated on certificate:

1922   Birth of Margaret Lumsden Grant Milne, Aberdeen
   Occupation stated on certificate:
   Death of James Alexander Milne, Aug 1922, Edinburgh
   Occupation stated on certificate: Master Mariner

1947   Death of Mary Duffus Milne or Graham, Aberdeen
   Occupation stated on certificate: Master Mariner


I'm looking for ANY clues as to where I go next as I've tried all the obvious places.

Lorna1320
Edinburgh

[mmm45]

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/image/Index/D6700591?isFullDescription=False

Could this be his RN record
He may have served in the Royal Naval Reserve Trawler section in the great war...
If so I would try the Fleet Air Arm museum at yeovilton they have RN records that aren't available at Kew
310/SA rank 2Hd Jas A Milne RNR on the Medal roll entitled to Star,war and Victory medals issued to Widow in 1922 looks promising?

Ady

[Lorna1320]

Ady

Thank you so much for coming back to me so quickly - I'm literally lost for words - thank you.

Yes - I downloaded the file at the National Archives relating to the record you posted and it is him. 

There is no record of him ever being on the Britannic - but I was glad to see that he was on HMS Icarus - as I had found this record on Ancestry.  He's been on quite a few ships but appears to be only a Signalman - not as the family were told a Master Mariner - dont know where they would have got that idea from.

I now have his Official Number 190875 in which I can contact the Fleet Air Arm Museum at Yeovilton and see if they can help shed some more to his naval career.  I'm so pleased you managed to find him under the Royal Naval Reserve Trawler Section - I was starting to think he was a ghost!!

So now I am left with wondering how he managed to get a White Star Line badge - perhaps it was a momento - I will have to do some more digging.

However, your kind help has given me all the ships he served on and the dates he was on them.  I really am most grateful to you for that.  Now I can start to have a look at the ships he was on and find out a little more about the kind of person he was.

I note that on the record he is noted as having a quite distinct tatoo on his right hand - crossed flags with sailor in the middle.  I can't believe he joined up saying he was 16 when he was actually 14 AND went all the way down to Chatham to join up!  Whow.

Caledonia 2nd Oct 1896
Pembroke I 27 Oct 1897-18 Apr 1898
Agincourt 19 Apr 1898-5 Jul 1898
Jupiter 6 Jul 1898-10 Jul 1898
Majestic 11 Jul 1898-17 Jan 1899
Pembroke I 18 Jan 1898-27 Mar 1899
Warspite 28 Mar 1899-1 Jun 1899 then 12 Oct 1899-30 Nov 1899
Leander 1 Dec 1899-5 May 1900
Warspite 16 May 1900-6Jul 1900
Icarus 7 Jul 1900-4 Jun 1902
Pembroke I 5 Jun 1902-20 Nov 1902 then to 3 Apr 1902

.....Noted Shore Invalided


Thanks so much again - please let me know if I can help in return - I live in Edinburgh

[seaweed]

You wrote
I have his occupation in 1907 (the year of his marriage) as a Trawler/Fisherman - it is only after 1911 that his occupation changes to 'Master Mariner'.  He is not listed under the online index of Lloyds Captains Registers either so he cant be a Master Mariner.
If he was certificated as Fishing boat skipper he would not, in most cases, appear on Lloyd's Captains Register, likewise if he held a home trade certificate.
Now here is the confusing part!  I can find no trace of him in the National Archives under , infact under Ancestry - there is again no record of him.
The title Merchant Navy Seamen (1835-1941) used by FindMyPast is somewhat confusing. There were NO central Merchant Navy seamans records kept between 1857 and effectively 1919. So of course you could not find him.

My guess is he served with the Royal Navy and left some time before or around 1907 to get married.
With his seagoing experience he found employment as a fisherman. He worked his way up to become a Skipper of a fishing boat. Although he was an experienced seaman/Skipper he probably embellished his title to that of Master Mariner.

When WW1 broke out,he would likely be called up by the Royal Navy as a reservist due to his previous RN service. His age and experience would more than likely qualify him for Master at Arms.

OK Most of that is supposition so where do you go from here. I would first of all go to the National Archive and search for him in series BT138 the Indexes to Registers of Certificates of Competency and Service, Skippers and Mates of Fishing Boats1880-1917. What you are after is his certificate number. Once you have that, you can then go on to search the registers in BT129 and BT130.
Could you post as an attachment a photograph of the "badge"
I'm so pleased you managed to find him under the Royal Naval Reserve Trawler Section - I was starting to think he was a ghost!!
Ady was only suggesting your man MAY have served in the RNVR Trawler Section not that he definatly served in the Trawler Section. I note Ady has now found his Royal Naval Reserve records.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?Edoc_Id=8925454&queryType=1&resultcount=24 So that should tell you where he served in WW1.
How do you know he signed up in Chatham. CALEDONIA was a boys training base at Queensferry.

[ainslie]

Were the Sea Cadets going as early as that?  Perhaps  a merchant navy cadet, in other words a potential or very junior officer?  Or a boy seaman?

[mmm45]

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=D8547072

This is the RNR record for the lad from medal roll that died its an Edinburgh birthplace.

Ady

[Lorna1320]

Could you post as an attachment a photograph of the "badge

"How do you know he signed up in Chatham. CALEDONIA was a boys training base at Queensferry.

Unfortunately I dont have a photograph of the 'badge' as my late cousin in Hull Ian Graham Hughes had it and unfortunately his whole estate was left to a charity so that would have formed part of it.  The description that Ian game me was 'Burgee with a Star in the centre'.  He was convinced it was off a Merchant Navy Uniform - which I now believe not to be the case.

I wonder therefore why 'Chatham' was written across the top of the record when his first ship was HMS Caledonia and then the Pembroke I.

Oh this is good fun trying to get to the bottom of his service career.

Lorna1320
 

[Lorna1320]

Were the Sea Cadets going as early as that?  Perhaps  a merchant navy cadet, in other words a potential or very junior officer?  Or a boy seaman?

I believe they were as I have a photograph of him in naval uniform which looks incredibly like the Sea Cadets.

I will try and attach it to this posting.

Lorna1320

[Lorna1320]

I should have also said that in this picture of James Alexander Milne with his family - his hat actually reads HMS CALEDONIA - so everything is starting to fall into place.

Lorna1320